Buddhists turning to Spiritualism

Discussion
1

Splitting off from the ‘ Future of Buddhism’ thread and responding to @sujato ’s interest in my tangential comment, I will post part of my original comment below followed by some further elaboration of my perspectives.

It’s an interesting dichotomy for me given there are Buddhists looking at Spiritualism, whilst I as a Spiritualist feel I have exhausted all it has to offer and am looking at Buddhism for answers instead.:blush:

Whilst not personally being privy to what opportunities are available for them within Buddhism to have such discussions , I do hear their perspectives on why they are not having these conversations, and I do understand where they are coming from, …at the same time as understanding how the perception of ego tripping involved is a great lip zipper in itself. :zipper_mouth_face:

There are also things that as a general rule, you do not talk about within Spiritualism & having to bite your tongue is a lonely road - especially if you don’t fully understand your own experiences.

It’s human nature tho to want answers, to want to find a like minded tribe, to want to be validated, to not wonder if you’re the only freak on the planet lol, … and when they are coming in with topics that ARE on the table for free and open discussion ( and ‘me too’ moments) it is like a dam bursting open and filling a very human need, that from what I’ve been told, they are not getting elsewhere.

That said, maybe nothing is ‘really’ stopping them. Maybe a hush -hush culture is more in their own minds. I don’t know, but I know I, (not knowing any better) rang up Ajahn Brahm just before last years rains retreat, having heard him say something on you tube that went against my own experiences. I proposed a hypothesis for why I had to disagree with him and asked what he thought about it as a possible explanation. I also told him something during a 20-30 minute convo that less than a handful of people know about (tho he did not get the full details - Spiritualism has conditioned me not to go there on that one) … and I could hear in his voice his eyebrows raising lol. :face_with_monocle::joy: Would I say what I said now tho?

With only 6-8 weeks of visiting this forum under my ‘buddhism belt’, the answer is - probably not, … because I’m starting to get an inkling (maybe misguided🤔) of what that would look like to a Buddhist.

AJB said he thought we would talk again one day, and yeah I’ve got some better questions now, and yeah I’d probably still ask him one day since I’ve already said some ‘out there’ things anyway, (can’t be much worse lol) … but yeah I’m not so sure I would bring it up to someone new.

Am I already being conditioned again in a new arena? The one I hoped would finally give me answers. Am I doing this to myself? Or is it a systemic reality to just not go there like these Buddhist ‘cross overs’ claim?

At the end of the day tho, I guess the question to look at ( from my perspective) is, how does Buddhism stop people feeling a compulsion of silence that becomes the impetus for them looking elsewhere for answers? Can they ask? Who do they ask? What ( if any) protocols are in place to invite them to feel comfortable to ask?

I don’t have the answers, and frankly I’m a hypocrite coz I say all this having only days ago declined an invitation to be a guest speaker on a pod cast that could have helped people understand some experiences, dispel some myths, allay some fears, and well, not have to feel so alone like I have had to get used to. I feel like I’m selfish and sorta suck a bit right now. :woman_shrugging:t2:

I look fwd tho to other perspectives on this conundrum.

5 Likes
2

As the anagarikā, I often talk with the guests that come here to the monastery about their weird and interesting experiences in meditation and whatnot :nerd_face:

I think it’s harder for the monastics because they’re not supposed to reveal anything too deep to the lay people, it would be a fault to reveal something true, and catastrophically, disrobal to tell a lie about it.

I used to have a “don’t talk about that stuff” policy also, but I have changed on this – honestly, many guests have quite deep experiences, and I think it’s good for them to talk about it with someone.

And if you talk to someone and hear similar experiences, that can be a way to make it not into an ego trip, because you realize your own experiences are not that special :slight_smile: :yellow_heart:

7 Likes
3

@Quidam you introduce the kind of discussion that makes me really curious! I think it will take some time for people to flesh this out and frame it – certainly me :wink:.

I’ve never been part of a spiritualist community although I’ve kept some interest in it. My most recent encounter was through Anne Baring’s work The Dream of the Cosmos: A Quest for the Soul. While she identifies as a Jungian analyst and not a spiritualist, she draws on Spiritualism throughout the book. The way she frames it all, tapping into supernatural realms is crucial for being “in service of the great web of living relationships that is [the Holy Spirit of Wisdom] and the life of the Cosmos.”

I think you’re referring especially to the 50% of your students who are coming from Buddhism?

In any case, you’re probably learning in this process that the “Buddhism” tent is very wide and tall. I’d be interested in learning what parts of the tent these students are coming from.

For example, an online forum like SuttaCentral is rather specific in its purpose, related to translation of the Early Buddhist Texts (EBTs) into modern languages; it doesn’t encourage people to try to make it a kind of practice or support community. Post-Covid I’ve noticed people investing time & energy into different types of online forums as a kind of practice community (not just for Buddhism).

This includes, for example, people who would come to the meditation group at my house pre-Covid and then jumped almost completely into online groups post-Covid as a replacement. (Even I tried a few out.) By and large I have not seen people meeting their very real needs for human connection through online communities.

That said, even in-person Buddhist practice communities will vary widely depending on what Buddhist tradition they relate to, who is leading the community, and so forth. If a community is led by monastics and in a monastic setting, students need to understand the context relative to personal sharing, sharing stories, and other more conventional dynamics. Lay practitioners like me go to monastic settings precisely for stepping out of conventions and stepping into more silent reflection. A refuge from sensory overload while receiving Buddhist teaching from monastics.

And that’s not where I would go for supporting more emergent needs. For that, I try to find a local Buddhist community of lay practitioners. I also encourage people to seek out other modalities for these more dynamic needs.

I’m heartened that Ajahn Brahm spent time in conversation with you :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: What a treat!

As a mentioned above, this forum is one small, tiny piece of the Buddhism tent. I don’t imagine this is where you want to “feel out” what it would like to be a Buddhist. I think you would want some personal friendships for that.

Yes, like I said above, I think this really takes place with people in relationships and off-line conversations. We kind of need to see people walk and chew gum at the same time while they practice. I don’t expect this forum – or any forum – to provide that. Maybe you can start finding some people to discuss with offline, as you move forward?

My experience over the years: as long as I’m developing mindfulness and meditation practices, it’s actually de-conditioning medicine. The Buddha’s medicine is wholly adequate for clear seeing; but I’m not sure how else to get there except through maintaining my own practice.

:pray: :elephant:

2 Likes
4

Hi Quidam,

Perhaps this is a western thing? Some people I’ve met in Asian (Thai and Sri Lankan) communities are much more casual about such things. Some teachers (such as Thanissaro Bhikkhu https://www.dhammatalks.org/) do talk about various interesting experiences reported by people he knew in Thailand or that his teachers mentioned. I recall years ago a visiting Thai teachers persuading some of us to stay up all weekend to enhance our chances of meeting a deva. [I didn’t see any devas but I learned a lot about mindfulness under tiring circumstances…]

For some of us, there is also an element of reaction to some of the wacky stuff that grew out of Hippy times of the 60s and 70s. The Frank Zappa song “Cosmic Debris” sums much of that up:

The Mystery Man came over
An’ he said: “I’m outta sight!”
He said, for a nominal service charge
I could reach Nirvana tonight…
https://genius.com/Frank-zappa-cosmik-debris-lyrics

Furthermore, I would say that inexplicable experiences don’t seem to be the point of Dhamma practice. With a knowledgeable teacher, discussion of such experiences can be helpful. For a group without some solid grounding in a reputable tradition it’s probably not helpful.

5 Likes
5

I’m glad you are both talking about things and giving other people the space to talk about things too :smiley: :clap::clap::clap:

I do think it’s important for those in Buddhism to get answers and stay where they are coz it’s going to take them further ( if their minds are inclined to seek) than what Spiritualism can. :hugs:

1 Like
6

Not claiming to be a knowledgeable teacher, but I usually just try to place people’s experiences within EBT meditation theory; basically, in the context of overcoming the hindrances (coarse and subtle) to enter samādhi.

I’ve come to really appreciate Buddhist meditation theory more and more actually, it’s really helpful for making sense what’s going on in meditation IMO.

I love seeing someone’s face light up as they tell me about their profound meditation experience! I feel really privileged that people want to share that with me tbh :nerd_face: :smiley:

1 Like
7

Hi. Your post is quite lengthy without providing details on the types of “supernatural/paranormal” experiences being referred to.

8

If you want to talk about any special “experiences”, supernatural or otherwise, please PM each other. Do not post personal meditation experiences or hearsay stories here.
:pray:t5:

5 Likes
9

That’s interesting. Maybe we in the west spend too much time trying to justify things than naturally accepting them. :thinking:

I don’t know what the Frank Zappa thing is about ( I’m not that old lol) but I’m thinking it might be worthwhile for me to note a distinction between Spiritualism ( capital S) and the new age mob calling themselves spiritualists (lowercase s)

One ( captital S) is an organised religion that enjoys all the usual govt tax breaks etc, has standards that lend themselves towards evidence, 176 years of research including scientific enquiry/ testing and even a variety of artefacts from the production of physical phenomena.

The other lot, ( lower case s) you might find dancing naked in the moonlight, in a ring of salt for protection, manifesting abundance thru the lions gate portal whilst charging up their crystals, selling as fact whatever idea just popped in their head, giving ‘fluffy’ readings that would get you kicked off a church podium, and generally filling the internet with so much unsubstantiated and sometimes harmful nonsense that they have inadvertently bought Spiritualism in to disrepute. I don’t even know what they are talking about 1/2 the time.

I completely distance myself from the latter. :grin:

I’ll reply to u later Beth. I’ll go read the message on using the site functions and figure out how to drop multiple quotations first. Right after I figure out why that just came out in bold text lol

1 Like
10

Yes, that was intentional on my part as I am trying to stay within the rules of the forum by not going in to specifics that are not really the point of the post. :slightly_smiling_face:

11

The suttas say:

And what is the demonstration of psychic power? It’s a mendicant who wields the many kinds of psychic power: multiplying themselves and becoming one again; appearing and disappearing; going unobstructed through a wall, a rampart, or a mountain as if through space; diving in and out of the earth as if it were water; walking on water as if it were earth; flying cross-legged through the sky like a bird; touching and stroking with the hand the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful; controlling the body as far as the Brahmā realm.

And what is the demonstration of revealing? It’s when a mendicant reveals the mind, mentality, thoughts, and reflections of other beings and individuals: ‘This is what you’re thinking, such is your thought, and thus is your state of mind.’

DN 11

[5] "He wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space. He dives in & out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

[6] "He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far.

[7] "He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [1] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind.

[8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], ‘There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.’ Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.

[9] "He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: ‘These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.’ Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.…

MN 119

1 Like
12

Some of the more minor aspects would be included in the definition of ‘psychic ability’ within Spiritualism tho at varying degrees.

Then there also is physical mediumship that defies the laws of physics - tho not touching the sun or diving in to the earth … but levitation and physical manifestations and other weird things are included. I’ve been lucky enough to witness such things a handful of times, but it’s really rare these days … and there are some charlatans sucking some people in too.

Anyway, this is off topic so I’d really rather stay away from the definitions in different fields and stay on the topic title. :slightly_smiling_face:

13

It doesn’t, IMO. The compulsion is within their own minds and their ego based social conditioning. The impetus to look elsewhere for answers comes from a non acceptance of the relatively pedestrian explanation of causality of phenomena as described in the EBT, lack of faith in their Teacher, and the clinging to conditioned experience as ‘Mine!’ and therefore something special.

People want the magic, they want the drama, they want the heroic search and the battle against insurmountable odds… in short they are addicted to Samsara. :person_facepalming: What they don’t want is the hard work of personally implementing the 8 Fold path or to actually accept the Truth when they stumble across it.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”
----------- Albus Dumbledore in the book Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows

Well, why not? There is nothing, IMO in the vinaya to prevent a monastic from guiding a layperson through the maze of their spiritual development.

But that’s not the issue is it? What most people want is for their own experience to be validated either directly as in ‘Yes, that was definitely XXX level!’ or indirectly as in ‘This enlightened master has described XXX experience, which I have had too - hence I am at XXX level!’. They want the ‘Full Tourist package’, not directions to the nearest exit. :joy:

A Teacher whom they have faith in. Detailed guidelines on choosing a Teacher are given in the EBT.

IMO, its not about setting protocols for laypeople feeling comfortable. Rather its about setting protocols to prevent laypeople from being targeted by the unscrupulous. The vinaya does a great job in that respect! I encourage all lay people to read the rules, if only in outline. They will be better able to spot the red flags.

IMO, an ethical teacher will discourage too much talk about the student’s experiences for the same reason an ethical doctor will discourage the patient from too much talk about their symptoms. While some discussion of personal experience is helpful to the teacher/doctor in correctly diagnosing and guiding the person, unnecessarily dwelling on the itty - bitty details of each and every symptom that has been or might ever be experienced simply detracts from the way forwards.

‘Spiritual’ experiences are prone to fettering, aka Suffering.

The goal is to free oneself from Suffering, not to delight in its features and details. :rofl:

(I have been forthright and perhaps too forward in voicing my opinion, please forgive me if I have accidentally pressed any triggers.)

4 Likes
14

One problem with Buddhism is that it doesn’t present a unified front with this regard; In DN, there’s 10+ suttas that describe the mind-made bodies and experiences as a benefit of being a renunciant and deep meditative experiences. So obviously these experiences are presented as something desirable (it is literally the Buddhist elevator pitch “Come to our ranks and you’ll experience mind-made bodies and experiences!”, emphasised over and over in so many suttas).

Furthermore, we have jhānās and ayatanas that are said to be cultivated, so many theravādin monks emphasise that “Right Samadhi = Jhana” which makes the attainment of these spectacular experiences especially critical.

Lastly, we have three knowledges that are the backbone of enlightenment experience: Recollection of former lives, How beings are born according to their kamma & destruction of taints. These supernatural knowledges are said to be cultivated on the path to arahantship.

But, we can’t discuss them on most public message boards! Monastics are especially banned from discussing their such experiences with lay people. So we have these things that need to be cultivated & verified, but with a great degree of inability to talk about them, or, like in this case, actively berated for focusing on them.

There are some meditative experiences that would make a psychiatrist concerned which a seasoned meditation teacher would approve and say is completely normal. When people are having such questions about their sanity, a level of compassion is due when people want to talk to an external authority figure about their safety and well-being.

Either they’re special and necessary on the path, or useless drivel - it can’t be both!

And again, Buddhism has a way of being dissonant with its values. What you say is oft-repeated, of course; but so are Stream-Entry, Once Returner, None Returner, Arahant levels.

We have very strict and formal levels of spiritual development, and then we’re told not to worry about it. You can see how this causes cognitive dissonance in people.

And more importantly, people with significant spiritual development, but not yet having full liberation, might already be experiencing some very weird mental states, and questioning their sanity. It is not easy when half the suttas have Buddha & Arahants conversing with devas, sprites and all, but people raising their eyebrows and telling you to not focus on such experiences.

And case in point:

I don’t mean this to be critical, and these forums probably has these rules for some good reasons.

But it showcases a fundamental irony of our practise and the OP’s point:

  1. We have a system of practices that are said to be supernatural that needs to be cultivated on the path to arahantship.
  2. It is very difficult to talk about these experiences (at least in the west, and especially online) without people saying “Pft, don’t worry about it!”

Again, either jhanas, ayatanas, three knowledges; the four division of stream-entry, once returner, non-returner and arahant are important and needs to be discussed; or frivolous concepts that are irrelevant on the path. Can’t be both! :smiley:

Now to be fair, I understand the importance of self-evaluation, not relying on others, the delicacy of these situations (something like sexual intimacy being shared online - but even deeper and more personal in many ways).

But you need to understand, it’s kind of like throwing a child in a candy store and saying they can’t have any. Of course people are going to focus on supernatural elements, that’s the entirety of our path. Being an arahant is such an exalted state that you can’t claim to be one without raising significant eyebrows. It’s no joke, and yet, it’s the ultimate goal of our practice.

What I’m suggesting is that, cultivating compassion and understanding for people who want to talk about their experiences, who (completely rightly so, as per Buddha’s instructions) seek to cultivate these states and abilities, keeping in mind the delicacy of the situation and potential for abuse by people claiming levels.

Of course people are going to seek levels of jhana or the depth of their enlightenment status and verify these with seasoned meditators - why else did Buddha talk about them? Saying “That’s such an unenlightened thing to do” is not really a good argument - of course it’s an unenlightened thing to do, the path is for the unenlightened people to achieve enlightenment.

You can’t say “Jhana! Jhana! You need Jhana before Enlightenment!” then someone saying “Oh, I think I’ve had first level of jhana?” and going back “Doubtful! Don’t worry about it! That’s only your ego trying to verify a magical moment!”

Buddha-dhamma is oftentimes a very lonely path. Now, I’m mostly fine with it, as I’ve always had trouble with people rather than with the absence of people. I’m probably too much on the side of “personal verification above all else” if anything. But for most people, this seclusion is literally soul crushing, and I wonder if we’re able to show kindness and compassion when people (again, rightly so) worry about their attainments and very relevantly, their sanities.

4 Likes
15

Well yeah, of course they want their experience validated or they wouldn’t be there asking about it or training to test it. They won’t get a ‘level’ tho - there literally are no actual levels. Just different forms and strength of abilities - without a ranking system.

Also keep in mind, that whilst you may be looking for a permanent exit, that is not everyone’s aim - or even belief - and if I understand it correctly, not even within all branches of Buddhism.

… and no, I’m not triggered by you sharing your opinion. Why would I be? It belongs to you. There is no reason why I should adopt it as my own and ‘feel’ something about it. :grin:

2 Likes
16

For example in MN119 the mindfulness of body is described with ten benefits of it when mindfulness of the body has been cultivated, developed, and practiced, made a vehicle and a basis, kept up, consolidated, and properly implemented.

If there were a person living right now who has obtained these ten benefits, then most likely he could explain to others how to properly implement mindfulness of body.

There are other people who too teach mindfulness of body, who however have not obtained these ten benefits. Can they really teach it to its full extent if they have not properly implemented it?

So, there is a benefit of knowing, whether the person teaching has properly implemented what they are teaching or not.

17

I have not quizzed any of them on where they were at in Buddhism.

Mindfulness, watching breath, etc are not only found in Buddhism tho, they can be part of things like Tai Chi, yoga, spiritualist pursuits, … even psychology and probably more that is not jumping immediately to mind.

Of course they don’t all necessarily have the same aim in doing it tho.

18

I think the suttas are clear on how to cultivate mindfulness of body. Still, it is not merely watching breath - what would be interesting to hear about is more detailed explanation regarding the following:

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ;

It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of covetousness and displeasure for the world.

Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati;
And so they meditate observing an aspect of the body internally, externally, and both internally and externally.

samudayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati, vayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati, samudayavayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati.
They meditate observing the body as liable to originate, as liable to vanish, and as liable to both originate and vanish.

‘Atthi kāyo’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti. Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.
Or mindfulness is established that the body exists, to the extent necessary for knowledge and mindfulness. They meditate independent, not grasping at anything in the world.

Evampi kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati.
That’s how a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body.

It seems, apart of watching breath, one is to be:

  1. keen, aware, and mindful (ātāpī sampajāno satimā)
  2. rid of covetousness and displeasure for the world (vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ)
  3. And so they meditate observing an aspect of the body internally, externally, and both internally and externally.
  4. They meditate observing the body as liable to originate, as liable to vanish, and as liable to both originate and vanish. Or mindfulness is established that the body exists, to the extent necessary for knowledge and mindfulness. They meditate independent, not grasping at anything in the world.

It would be very useful to know the meaning and significance of 1. 2. 3. 4., studying the Pali translation might provide additional insight. What do these four points mean? It seems to me that if one does not understand these four points and were to simply watch breath without these four factors, they would not be following the instruction.

19

Hi Am7
If you are a Buddhist, and those are your goals and desired outcome, then it would absolutely serve you best to follow Buddhism.

If you’re a psychologist using mindfulness to help a client with OCD, (for example) then you are not going to be aiming for them to think about originating or vanishing etc. It would not only be of no use to them, it would quite possibly, to be honest, be giving them something else to trigger obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviours over. Mindfulness would be with a completely different intent. It does not mean the mindfulness can not serve and fulfil an intended purpose coz it’s not with a Buddhist flavour and Buddhist intent.

I can appreciate you perhaps limiting your thinking to your version of mindfulness as being the only valid one with the only valid purpose, but maybe you should make a new topic about that.

This topic is actually about the reasons some people have given for not feeling comfortable to ask questions within Buddhism and have looked elsewhere for answers. :blush:

20

Who appreciates limiting one’s thinking? I am not sure I follow your sentence about you appreciating limiting others thoughts, neither I bring up a new version of mindfulness - rather am trying to understand the right mindfulness as taught in the Suttas. I am not experienced with psychological use of mindfulness and neither know what benefits it does bring to patients - but I did hear some stories about it being beneficial.

Well, that’s the thing - if someone were to be posting about mindfulness and answer to these questions here - it would be natural to ask how far they’ve got with their practice of mindfulness: did they get over sadness and crying? started developing some awakening factors? or realized the ten benefits of it? - which however is not allowed here.