Can Kamma be proven?

Some say it can be proven but some say it is to be believed by faith.

Are there evidences that support to prove “Kamma gives Vipaka”?

Absolutely, and very easy to prove.

You can prove it by carefully observing your own thoughts and mental states.

It is impossible to prove, “kamma” is one of the things to believe in Buddhism.

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=45662

I don’t have an answer for you, but this may be helpful:

"So it is, Blessed One. So it is, Sublime one. The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, four solaces are found.

"‘Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.’ This is the first solace found by him.

"‘Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.’ This is the second solace found by him.

"‘Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?’ This is the third solace found by him.

"‘Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.’ This is the fourth solace found by him.

"The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found.

(Source: Kalama Sutta: The Instruction to the Kalamas)

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What do you mean by ‘proven’ though?

Do you mean whether kamma can be the subject of scientific investigation?

Sure :cowboy_hat_face: consider the Buddha’s statement that generosity in past lives leads to wealth in subsequent lives. We could ask children who remember previous lives questions about how generous they were, and then we could record their wealth and income levels as adults.

Perhaps we would find some correlation between memories of past life generosity and present wealth. Meaning that those who report more generosity in past lives are on average more wealthy in their present life.

This could be interpreted as evidence in favor of the Buddha’s theory of kamma. But it’s very weak evidence, it’s not definitive.

If we found no correlation between past life generosity and present wealth, that wouldn’t really disprove kamma either. There are plenty of other reasons – other than kamma being false – that could lead to a null result (zero correlation). E.g. the children having imperfect recall of their past lives, small sample size, methodical errors, etc.

But the method of proving kamma that the Buddha gives is different than your typical scientific investigation:

But there comes a time when that mind is stilled internally; it settles, unifies, and becomes immersed in samādhi. That immersion is peaceful and sublime and tranquil and unified, not held in place by forceful suppression. They become capable of realizing anything that can be realized by insight to which they extend the mind, in each and every case. (AN 3.101)

AFAIK, the idea is basically that the mind can just ‘do stuff’ it ordinarily cannot after being immersed in samadhi.

I find it hard to think of any way to prove it (to oneself at least) other than trying to develop this type of samadhi :woman_shrugging:

It cannot be said that the one who acts is identical to the one who experiences the consequences as in that case one could not attain freedom from actions and consequences.

It cannot be said that the one who acts is one peraon and the one who experiences consequences a different person as in that case one would already be free of the acts but still be experiencing the consequences

It cannot be said that the one who acts and the one who experiences the consequences posses both indentities and differences as we have already ruled them out individually

It cannot be said that there is some other cause or condition, external to the above alternatives, being niether that the one who acts is identical nor that they are different from the one who experiences the consequences (for example by chance) because the negation of the preceding three lemmas does not yeild a legitimate story of actions and consequences.

Therefore what may be said of actors, actions, and consequences is more like:

Where there are consequences it may be said there where actions.

In the absense of actions there is an absense of consequences.

Where there is an action there is an actor

In the absense of an action no actor is to be found.

Where there is a consequence there is an experiencer.

In the absense of a consequence there is no experience, in the absense of an experience there is an absense of an experiencer.

Thats the gist of the picture in the ebt.

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Is there a way of logical reasoning as mentioned in Cullakammavibhanga Sutta or Paccaya-pariggaha-nana in Vipassana?

Eg:
By observing the differences of people and inferring there must be a reason.

Inferring that this reason can’t be a creator like God since there are only five masses to be seen in this world.

…likewise…

Do you mean another way to know e.g kamma that’s not via super-samadhi-mindstates?

  1. Kamma may not ripen in the immediate next life.

  2. Lots of conditions needs to be right for kamma to ripen.

I considered the scientific method to use on kamma before.

  1. Past life must first be accepted as a scientific fact.

  2. Then divine eye must also be accepted as a scientific tool for investigation. Can have many people with divine eye to investigate each person to examine their many past lives and report findings. The findings should be consistent with each other to have replicability and independent verification.

  3. Examine many past lives, perhaps even over eons. Of many people. Try to see a pattern of action and result.

  4. Also, the world would have to accept other realms of existence to be a valid scientific thing to be reported. Or else cannot make sense of the statement do good, lead to heaven; do bad, lead to lower realms.

  5. Find a way to quantify kamma, to measure and to identify which action leads to which results, over many lifetimes over many people.

Basically impossible on the level of scientific method we have today, but direct seeing for those with divine eye, it’s a fact for them already.

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I really love this explanation by Buddha.

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It is a necessary basis of practice to observe the results of thoughts, but not to be obsessive about it:

""And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with sensuality arose in me. I discerned that ‘Thinking imbued with sensuality has arisen in me; and that leads to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both. It obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding.’

—Majjhima Nikaya 19

It seems to me that you have proven it already!

Your placing the original post = intentional action viz kamma
Your feelings on reading the answers = results of intentional action viz kamma vipaka

If your original intention in making the post was wholesome, chances are that the way in which you framed it (speech/ action) would be positive, this would elicit generally positive responses from the environment and the results experienced within your mind state will be beneficial.

If your original intention in making the post was unwholesome, chances are that the way in which you frame it (speech/ action) will be negative, this will elicit negative responses from the environment and the results experienced within your mind state will be unbeneficial.

Similarly for mixed intentions leading to mixed results.


[postscript]
An hour after writing this, I open my gmail for an unrelated task - randomly click on the [social] tab and guess what pops up?

Synchronicity? Kamma? Neurobiological attention programming? :rofl:
Call it what you will, it never fails.

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One of the benefits of being able to observe the effects of kamma is in defusing the urge to retaliate when others express anger.

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It sounds like Blaise Pascal was familiar with this sutta.

Sorry for not having the time to answer the question directly, but I have written before some posts which might illuminate a little bit the question as to how kamma works…If you have an interest, here 2 (+1) links: Kamma Niyama and Intention and Kamma… the last one was actually part of a longer project, which was meant to explain everything from matter, via mind and consciousness till Dhamma…Keys to the Abhidhamma

The point in all these was that in order to understand kamma, you have to understand something about consciousness…and in the latter one…that in order to understand consciousness you have to understand something about body and mind…

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