One thing I’ve noticed in the Nikayas is that the “3 Knowledges” — which explicitly involve knowledge of rebirth — are associated with the Arahant stage, not the lower stages.
The knowledge involved in the arising of the Dhamma Eye, which happens at stream entry, is “Whatever arises passes away” — it’s more about impermanence/dependent origination.
So I guess I’m open minded to the possibility that pre-arahant noble disciples might be unbelievers in rebirth. However, they’d have to still be ethical.
We cannot break or escape from something that we do not believe in its existence or we do not pay much attention to it since we do not see the need to do so or we never think about escaping from it.
Samsara is an endless cycle from birth to death and death to birth. Beings are stuck in this endless cycle. When there is birth, there must be death. There is no escape from this. This is the DO process. It is a fixed law. However, when there is death, there is an escape from birth since death → birth is not a DO link. It is not a fixed law. Therefore, without seeing that death can lead us back to birth, we will not know how to escape it. The escape route is a narrow path and it requires wisdom.
From SN12.4 to SN12.10, the following exclamation is repeated by several Buddhas in the past:
Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering headed by aging-and-death. When now will an escape be discerned from this suffering headed by aging-and-death?’ (SN12.4)
The Suttas reserved the whole chapter for the problem of samsara from SN15.1 to SN15.10:
We can also see that this samsara is not simply psychological when we look at these suttas.
“Mendicants, transmigration has no known beginning. No first point is found of sentient beings roaming and transmigrating, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. What do you think? Which is more: the flow of tears you’ve shed while roaming and transmigrating for such a very long time—weeping and wailing from being united with the unloved and separated from the loved—or the water in the four oceans?”
“As we understand the Buddha’s teaching, the flow of tears we’ve shed while roaming and transmigrating is more than the water in the four oceans.”
Then the Buddha concluded:
Why is that? Transmigration has no known beginning. … This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.”
I think this is a very important point. I personally have no problem with the concept of rebirth, and I think it puts the whole “project” of awaking into perspective. However, though I my day job is in Science, I don’t find discussions about “proving” or “disproving” rebirth (and other Dhamma concepts) in scientific terms very interesting. I see Dhamma and Science as different knowledge systems with different aims. Trying to force them into the same box doesn’t do Dhamma justice, in my opinion. [Especially since science, by design, is inconstant—why tie your faith in Dhamma to current scientific theories that may be gone in a few years? ]
In considering rebirth, and how it fits together with other aspects of the Dhamma (Dependent origination, anatta) I have found Patrick Kearneys analyses of “life after life” in various talks on his site Audio - Patrick Kearney and
this retreat: Dharma Seed - Dharma Talks from Retreats, specifically:
2015-09-16 Anatta & the problem of life-after-life 1:22:53
Here we look at one aspect of the teaching of anattā, that of life-after-life, or rebirth. We see that this teaching does not say that any being or thing transfers from one life to the next, and yet because we are caught up in identity we can’t help but think in such terms. We also look at some characteristics of our culture that make it particularly difficult for us to come to terms with this teaching. Dharma Seed - Anatta & the problem of life-after-life
I think if that were the case there would be eight factors of awakening as opposed to seven. Surely belief in rebirth could be a supporting factor with regard to effort but so could lots of other factors.
And just because you believe in rebirth doesn’t mean it will help. Someone could believe in rebirth and it could lead to desire for future becoming – for example, someone that wants to be rich or famous, etc. or someone that feels they need to practice sila for 100 lifetimes before attempting meditation.
Also, when you look at how the practice develops – where is belief in rebirth to be found? Certainly not in the jhanas.
Over and over we see that something along the line of ‘sila leads to calm, calm leads to joy, joy leads to concentration, and so on’ (just keeping it short). Belief in rebirth may be a good reason to practice sila but I can’t see how it would be a requirement.
somebody can attain stream-entry without belief in rebirth. However, after the nibbana experience the materialist and annihilationist views will be discarded, and the only view available on the arising and perishing of beings will be rebirth. Maybe because that reason no ariya in the Buddhist History denied rebirth even when no supranormal experience of previous lives.
This is true and a real danger. Sometimes people think to just do merit and try for liberation “in the next life”. Or trying to accumulate paramita now, for later rebirth. Or trying to go to heaven by giving big donations.
One of the traditional topic to solve this wrong view is the preciousness and rarity of human birth.
That human birth is very difficult to achieve, it is very rare occurrence just like a blind turtle … (you know the rest). That the Buddha compare dust in his fingernails and dust on earth, to illustrate the number of humans compared to beings in lower realm.
That this could be your last and only chance, the only human birth that will occur in several kalpa.
The Buddha counselled us to avoid the two extremes of annihilationism and eternalism materialism; he held back from describing what the middle track should be. And so unenlightened beings describe the middle track in ways that are conditioned by their own experiences: all of which are heavily conditioned by their own culture.
I can’t think of even one occasion when a group from one culture saying to anyone, “We’re right and you’re wrong, so suck it up and get over it” lead to a happy ending. Ever. (Just think about colonialism.)
The best way I can think of for discovering that middle way between annihilationism and materialism eternalism is to follow the 8fNP and to continually work to wear away one’s personal defilements so that eventually one can know for oneself.
The other extreme is eternalism. That is an eternal soul surviving death for eternal heaven or hell, or reincarnation philosophy which has an eternal soul. Rebirth is dependent origination, no soul and can end. In contrast ending of reincarnation in Hinduism seems to be like merging with the big soul of Brahman.
“‘All does not exist’: this, brahmin, is the second extreme. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle….”
When this was said, the brahmin Jaṇussoṇi said to the Blessed One: “Magnificent, Master Gotama!… From today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”
“How is it, Master Gotama: is the one who acts the same as the one who experiences the result?”
“‘The one who acts is the same as the one who experiences the result’: this, brahmin, is one extreme.”
“Then, Master Gotama, is the one who acts one, and the one who experiences the result another?”
“‘The one who acts is one, and the one who experiences the result is another’: this, brahmin, is the second extreme. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle: ‘With ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.’”
And what is old age and death? The old age, decrepitude, broken teeth, grey hair, wrinkly skin, diminished vitality, and failing faculties of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings. This is called old age. The passing away, perishing, disintegration, demise, mortality, death, decease, breaking up of the aggregates, and laying to rest of the corpse of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings. This is called death. Such is old age, and such is death. This is called old age and death.
And what is rebirth? The rebirth, inception, conception, reincarnation, manifestation of the aggregates, and acquisition of the sense fields of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings. This is called rebirth.
Anyway, appreciate your attempt at diplomacy here.
It is indeed due to the world largely holds either annihilationism doctrine or eternalism doctrine that rebirth is not easily processed as fact of nature to them.
Eternalism doctrines are held by about half of the world’s population of the Christian and Islamic faith. Annihilationism, materialism, physicalism doctrine is held by mainstream academia, almost regardless of their subject. Except for parapsychology and philosophy, but especially by scientists. Hence scientism, the blind faith of many scientist’s philosophical outlook without critically considering many other possible philosophical viewpoints is basically annihilationism, and why it’s so hard for secularist to accept rebirth exist.
I would say that rebirth evidence are quite different from physics theories and models. The rebirth evidence shows that kids can have memories of people who passed away without any normal means of acquiring them. Rebirth is the simplest, Occam’s razor model, explanation for such phenomenon. Also, depending on the philosophical leanings, some people use reincarnation as the model.
As far as the cases go, I had read enough to be convinced that if everyone on earth read as much of the cases as I did, (more than 10, less than 100), the world would regard rebirth as fact of nature.
Do read some of them if you’re free to see the difference between such evidences and physics models.
I agree. Even though there is rebirth, but not everybody will be ready to end it or accept it. Therefore, if we are not ready for it, put it aside but do not reject it. Work for a better life until we are ready for it. The path is a gradual path. We cannot jump from a 20-storied house at once.
I’ve read some, and they are interesting and may well be recollections of past lives. However, I just don’t get particularly excited about them. I do understand that some find them very inspiring, and that’s great if that’s the case. However, my faith in the Dhamma is based on examining my experience in light of the teachings. The recollections of past lives in the suttas involve either extremely highly developed practitioners, or spontaneously born beings, and the recollections are used to illustrate particular points of Dhamma.
So, to me, it quite similar to my point about physics. From a Dhamma point of view, children recalling past lives is just worldly phenomena, though I do appreciate that it may help some to approach aspects of Dhamma. Similarly, learning how modern physics overturns some of our assumptions about measurement and so on may be helpful preparation for some to overturning assumptions and understanding Dhamma. But only those with particular interests.
It happens with the 3 knowledges at the Arahant stage. Even just the last one, about “there is no returning to any state of existence” would involve rebirth knowledge.
That these are only mentioned for arahants makes me suspect that belief in rebirth might not be a requirement for lower attainments.
Another point: I recently re-read MN 47, which mentions developing confidence in the triple gem “When they directly know a certain principle of those teachings.” This seems to suggest that different people will investigate a different principle in order to eliminate their doubt….there might not be one belief or set of beliefs that everyone must directly confirm before developing faith in the triple gem….maybe for some ppl, literal rebirth isn’t involved? idk.
MN 38 says knowledge of D.O. is involved in Knowledge and Vision, and getting rid of the 3 lower fetters (it doesn’t use that term, but that’s what the description sounds like). But some people interpret D.O. in a “moment to moment” way rather than a rebirth-orientation way. I don’t agree with that interpretation, but maybe it’s enough for some ppl to develop verified confidence in the teaching.
I’d also like to add a point, in deference to the other side —
I don’t think belief in rebirth (absent of something like Siddhi powers) requires “blind faith.” Indeed, I already believed in rebirth/reincarnation before I discovered the Buddhadhamma. It just made the most logical sense of the world to me, for various reasons. Plus, as @NgXinZhao points out, there are ways to investigate the matter scientifically.
But even if someone believes in rebirth simply out of “blind” faith, so what? The Buddha acknowledge the existence of “Faith Followers” who are destined for stream entry. The problem only arises if your faith makes you look down on others and complacent in your own practice.
I think this doubt, this undecideness, this unclarity of what is really skillfull, is exactly what is meant by doubt as hindrance. “It might be…it might be not”…that a literal interpretation or psychological interpretation is skillfull. Not beyond doubt about Dhamma. That way we cannot enter the stream.
For sutta’s about doubt as hindrance, see, for example MN51 (and many others:
“Giving up doubt, they meditate having gone beyond doubt, not undecided about skillful qualities, cleansing the mind of doubt”
While I understand the motivation for the topic (rebirth-belief & stream-entry), there’s really nothing to it when you look closely.
Sutta-wise the closest to answer the question is to say either:
Belief in rebirth is implied the prerequsites for stream-entry. It’s somehow implied in the fetter of self-view. It’s not implied in clinging to rituals. It’s somehow implied in the fetter of skeptical doubt. Problem is, rebirth is not explicitly mentioned in fetters 1 or 3. If you have to see the connection because of your conviction, then you’ll find it. If you don’t have to see it, you don’t have to find it.
or you simply say none of the explicit prerequisites in the suttas require a dogmatic belief in rebirth, and that’s it
If you leave the suttas and apply a more scientific approach you could randomly choose 100 stream-enterers and see how many of these believe in rebirth. Or you choose 100 rebirth believers and 100 non-rebirth believers and 100 who don’t care and in a longitudenal observation see how likely it is that they become stream-enterers…
The fact that the scientific approach is laughably remote from reality shows that the question is relevant only for sutta studies. Otherwise it leads to dogmatic hair-splitting and pseudo dhamma speculations.
No one has to blindly believe in rebirth, when there is so much evidence for it. Research (conducted by Dr. Ian Stevenson, Jim Tucker and many other researchers) has carefully investigated children who remember and report past lives. In these studies, children who present with memories of previous lives are extensively interviewed, and if they give specific names or locations (cities, towns), the previous life individual is traced and verified using death certificates and autopsy records, etc. They have studied thousands of such cases (NOT just a handful), and there are many academic articles/books written on this by these researchers. Below are some academic publications – note that the list is not complete.
Mills, A., Haraldsson, E., & Keil, H. H. J. (1994). Replication studies of cases suggestive of reincarnation by three independent investigators. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 88, 207–219.
Stevenson, I. (2006). Half a career with the Paranormal. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 20(1), 13–21.
Barker, D. R., & Pasricha, S. K. (1979). Reincarnation cases in Fatehabad: A systematic survey in North India. Journal of Asian and African Studies, 14, 231–241.
Tucker, J. B. (2005). Life before life: a scientific investigation of children’s memories of previous lives. Macmillan.
Stevenson, I. (2000). Unusual play in young children who claim to remember previous lives. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 14, 557–570.
Haraldsson, E., & Samararatne, G. (1999). Children who speak of memories of a previous life as a Buddhist monk: Three new cases. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 63, 268–291.
Cook, E. W., Pasricha, S., Samararatne, G., Maung, U., & Stevenson, I. (1983). Review and analysis of “unsolved” cases of the reincarnation type: II. Comparison of features of solved and unsolved cases. The Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 77(1), 45–62.
Stevenson, I. (1990). Phobias in children who claim to remember previous lives. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 4, 243–254.
Tucker, J. B. (2013). Return to life: Extraordinary cases of children who remember past lives. Macmillan.
Stevenson, I., & Keil, J. (2005). Children of Myanmar who behave like Japanese soldiers: A possible third element in personality. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 19, 171–183.
Stevenson, I. (2000). The phenomenon of claimed memories of previous lives: Possible interpretations and importance. Medical Hypotheses, 54, 652–659.
The Kimsuka Sutta (SN 35.204) talks about four ways to attaining enlightenment – they are things like understanding the manifestation of the aggregates, the sense bases, etc. There is no need for belief. But if one develops wisdom, and especially see the conditioned origination and the constant arising and ceasing of all manifestations (which generally happens at stream entry), then it is possible to see that these would continue and they couldn’t have begun at birth. People are also known to remember their past lives by developing concentrated states (Samadhi). The other is direct evidence from investigations, which I posted separately.
I’ve just been doing a bit of proof reading of an old talk by Ajahn Brahm today. It is a talk about meditation, but I think that it is applicable to this thread too. It kinda turns the idea of a ‘variety of tactics’ on it’s head.
It’s from the book: Simply This Moment, Talk #6, The Opening of the Lotus.
When I teach retreats I often see this. Some of the Asian meditators are able to go far deeper in their meditation, because generally speaking they trust what a monk says, they don’t argue with it, they don’t think twice about it, they just do it. They follow the instructions and it works. In contrast many Westerners are so independent, basically so conceited and arrogant, that sometimes we don’t want to follow what the teacher says, or what the Buddha says. We want to find out in our own way what we think must be right. When one is not yet a Stream Winner that belief in ones own ideas and views is very uncertain, it creates so much of a burden, so much of an obstacle in your monastic life. Be careful what you put your faith in. As you know faith or saddhā, is one of the five spiritual qualities, the five indriyas. It’s very important to have faith at the beginning of your practice because you haven’t grown in paññā, in wisdom yet. When one has gained wisdom, then that faith is confirmed. You are stronger in the faith because you have seen that truth for yourself. Ajahn Chah used to say that when you have been a monk for five years you have five per cent of wisdom. Someone asked, “Does that mean when you have four years as a monk that you have four per cent wisdom?” He said, “No, when you’ve got four years you’ve got zero wisdom”. What he said was very wise: if you’ve got zero wisdom you have to accept it and do as you are told. Trust in Ajahn Chah and you’ll go much further than if you trust in yourself. I’ve seen that degree of faith, that degree of surrender, in some of the Asian meditators and because of that they follow instructions without question.
It’s amazing that with some Westerners things often go wrong with the tools and equipment they buy because they don’t read the instructions before they plug in and start using them. That’s the arrogance of people these days; they think that they are so superior; they think they know it all. They have faith in their own abilities and that’s why they are always falling on their faces. A person who truly has faith would read the instructions, understand those instructions, and if there were any questions would read it again until they understood the instructions, and then they would proceed. The instructions are very clear, craving leads to suffering, letting go leads to peace.
