Can or should a lay follower eliminate sensual desire?

I am really unable to understand what you are trying to say here, let me just comment that I was not applying ‘financial standards’ or anything like that. I had that reflection since I had previously seen a video by a monk saying you should relax in a traffic jam or if you miss a plane. So I realized when seeing Sujato’s video that indeed that advice is ok for monks and nuns, since they can miss meetings without any serious consequences. For a lay person I think that advice was harder to follow. So I was not thinking of ‘financial standards’ whatever that means.
Perhaps, to clarify the meaning of my remarks, it’s useful to read them in the context of the earlier posts, and of the post I answered to.

I am wondering whether you have seen any of Ajahn Brahm’s meditation classes for his 9 days retreats? They are available on YouTube. What you are describing is what he calls ‘Second noble truth meditation’; where you put in hard work and don’t get anywhere. He says real meditation (‘third Noble truth meditation’) should be about abandoning all striving, so it shouldn’t be like work at all. That is why they now translate samadhi with stillness, rather than concentration, since concentration suggests striving and is the wrong word. At least that’s what I understood from those videos.

That’s the point- it subtle- and yes, it is called striving in the EBTs. But its not the 9-5 kind of work, obviously. Yet if we say sitting in one place hour upon hour, day upon day isn’t some kinds of striving, we can just take it easy and enjoy the senses, or watch TV instead. It takes commitment and determination to do that. That comes from understanding the path and its implications. The Buddha say the energy must be not too tight or too lax, like a string in a stringed instrument, otherwise we wont have correct outcome. Not meditating or practicing is one extreme, trying too hard (very rarely seen) is another.

I’m sure there were some consequences :grinning:. If you take up a job as fire fighter, or a doctor what responsibility have you signed up for? If you have signed up to be a beggar (one role of a monk), what responsibility have you then signed up for? Nobody would consider missing meetings are appropriate for monks or lay people. He would have disappointed a lot of people who were waiting for him. Kindness dictates wondering whether Ajhan Sujato was overworked, or loosing sleep etc?

One of the central themes of the Metta Sutta is to be good to others. It’s not an endorsement of laziness, which the Buddha discouraged.

I don’t. But I don’t assume that they’re all living carefree lives either. Many of the monastics that we don’t hear about likely work diligently behind the scenes.

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So what is your interpretation of the expression

Unburdened with duties?

“Don’t say that, Ariṭṭha! Don’t misrepresent the Buddha, for misrepresentation of the Buddha is not good. And the Buddha would not say that. In many ways the Buddha has said that obstructive acts are obstructive, and that they really do obstruct the one who performs them. The Buddha says that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. With the similes of a skeleton … a piece of flesh … a grass torch … a pit of glowing coals … a dream … borrowed goods … fruit on a tree … a butcher’s knife and chopping block … a staking sword … a snake’s head, the Buddha says that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks.” - MN22

I wonder how your view squares with the Buddha’s view in this sutta?

Edit: Another one:

Suppose there was a person affected by leprosy, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, they’re cauterizing their body over a pit of glowing coals. The more they scratch their wounds and cauterize their body, the more their wounds become foul, stinking, and infected. But still, they derive a degree of pleasure and gratification from the itchiness of their wounds. In the same way, I see other sentient beings who are not free from sensual pleasures being consumed by craving for sensual pleasures, burning with passion for sensual pleasures, indulging in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in sensual pleasures, the more their craving for sensual pleasures grows, and the more they burn with passion for sensual pleasures. But still, they derive a degree of pleasure and gratification from the five kinds of sensual stimulation. - MN75

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To not be overwhelmed with duties. It’s not saying that we shouldn’t have any duties at all, but instead only take on the duties that are necessary. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that line a little more clearly as “of few duties and a frugal way of living.”

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Great, so you seem to agree with my initial description, where I said that the ideal was of ‘working little’. ‘Few duties’ and ‘working little’ seem to mean the same thing. :slightly_smiling_face:
with metta

Did you ask a monk what they do in these 3 months or did just assume ?

Yes & no. Chan Buddhism it’s adamant on this subject - they firmly prone that an high degree of enlightenment / insight / liberation can be attained by lay people, in a relationship or not … i say it again : as for kamma and liberation mind’s content it’s what counts - not the physical act in and of itself , this as much as basic ethics like not deceiving, not lying etc are respected.

“extremely well fed” ?!? “Banquet” ?!? you are certainly acquainted with what the suttas say about how a bhikkhu should eat .

As for Nibanna being a monk’s privilege do you know about any having attained it and if yes, how can you know that he/she attained Nibanna ?

I read about these retreats in the biographies of monks and in the EBT. My understanding is that this retreat was historically simply due to the fact that there were monsoons in India, so people could not move around. Now even though there are no monsoon in places like the UK, Theravada monks still keep the tradition. The reason for the retreat now seems to be meditation (and study).

It is not uncommon btw that a rule originated in a specific context and had particular reasons (for example my understanding is that the Buddha eventually found that it was not a good idea for monks to eat in the afternoon - even though initially they did - for safety reasons since it was dangerous to go on alms round late) and now the rule is still there even though the situation has changed.

I am acquainted with Amaravati monastery. I made this comment in the context of someone who said above that he is considering ordination, so I considered my experience of a stay at a monastery in the Theravada tradition relevant to comment on his post, since if they ordain they will presumably be eating at an existing monastery

Your description of the metta sutta isn’t what I had initially disagreed with.

With Metta.

… a lot of tangents in this thread.

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Please remember that the purpose of discussion is not to prove a point, to win an argument etc etc.
Please make points respectfully, “as if you were in a temple”

Remember to think about whether the post is likely to lead to benefit or harm - if in doubt don’t post, or wait a while before deciding to post.
These posts end up being part of the permanent record - your voice will be read by many people over time, try to make it an edifying experience for all :slight_smile:

Finally, please try and relate the posts to the OP. This assists with topic search for the many people who silently access this site.

Metta

:anjal::dharmawheel:

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Personally I think it’s both possible and reasonable, but you’ll have to have the right supporting conditions, you’ll have to be creative. A relationship that involves sex is going to work against you; a partner that doesn’t understand your goal is going to work against you.

There are married (and widowed) folks who live the eight precepts after they have children. I recently met a young, single layman following the eight precepts for life. There are lay people who become monastery attendants for life. It all depends on your circumstance and your resolve.

I think it should be said that you won’t just eliminate sensual desire willy-nilly. It’ll take a lot of work and involves penetrating the insight of phenomena. Like someone said, then when it comes time to abandon it, it’ll be from a place of really seeing things as they are and not wanting to get involving with the net of sensuality.

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I don’t see why this is supposed to be a given. It’s easy to say “You have to give up sex if you want to pursue a spiritual / Buddhist path” - the danger is that one falls into a grim dogmatism.

There is no doubt that sex is not seen as directly conducive in the EBT. But actually, under the right circumstances, why not? In intimate, trustful relationships, we can learn what it means to care for the other, to develop curiosity and openness and honesty, and all this can manifest itself nicely in sex as well.

I don’t criticize celibacy, but would like to qualify both: “right celibacy” and “right sexuality” - both can be done in an harmful and a skillful way, so why should sex be fully condemned and celibacy fully praised?

When someone enjoys listening to dhamma talks, should they get the same neurotic reflex of “Oh, I shouldn’t enjoy this”? If in Buddhism it’s all about the consequences than each practitioner should apply this to their sexuality / sensuality as well, without a dogmatic stand that is in many cases bound to effect guilt and shame.

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You don’t have to give up sex to pursue a spiritual path, but the culmination of the path involves giving up sex—giving up everything actually. The OP asked about eliminating sensual desire and sex involves sensual desire, therefore it will need to be given up.

In my understanding, sex requires intentional sexual arousal, and intentional sexual arousal requires craving for all sorts of stimuli (sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch, ideas). Sensuality is a hindrance to deep concentration and liberation. That’s clear not just in the texts, but in my own meditation practice (and other’s too, I’m sure).

Yes, just because you stop having sex doesn’t mean you’ve ended unskillful desires. The desires are in your mind. But abandoning sex will help you confront those desires when you can’t express them so coarsely. Then when the desires have ended (through your own efforts), there’s just no desire for sex whatsoever.

Enjoying something and craving for sensuality are two separate things. There are pleasures not of the flesh that the Buddha describes, like the pleasure that comes from absorption. Those are more skillful, but ultimately even that needs to be let go to achieve liberation.

It’s all about what your goal is. If your goal is to enjoy sensual pleasures, enjoy them responsibly. Make connections with your partner and have a beautiful relationship. But it will need be given up to attain the ultimate goal of this particular spiritual path. If people aren’t interested in the goal, then fine, but those who are should be clear on what they need to get there.

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I’m all for keeping the big goal in sight - yet, at the same time many of us are not there yet, and I would argue that to apply skillfully what is in front of us is just as relevant as pursuing the spiritual singularity.

Just one example of how it can apply to sexuality: When I am in a sexually satisfying loving relationship, the urgent sexual need is not present. I see a woman on the street, and knowing how more satisfying love+sex is than just sex I don’t follow the nimittas of beauty, I don’t objectify her. More easily come thoughts to my mind how sad it is that many people need to create an attractive appearance for the sake of society or for feeling confident - satisfying my sexual needs in a loving relationship ‘gives me space’, to observe, to contemplate.

In contrast, when I’m not satisfied much more easily the mind jumps on the signs of attraction, throws me into a hurricane of lust, opposing spiritual thoughts, possibly shame and guilt, in short: a much more stressful, potentially negative escalation.

Of course if I’m in an unsatisfying relationship I have the worst of the two, creating harm for myself and others and lusting for other people. But, I would argue, in that situation it’s much easier and practical to fix my relationship or to start a more satisfying one, than to attain enlightenment.

My suggestion is to fix what is directly in front of me next to my spiritual aspirations: relationship, sexuality, work, interactions. If done skillfully it will support my big pursuits. If one has the skill and talent to go without relationships, sexuality, food-appetite, work, or social interactions, then of course there is no need at all to artificially add these mundane aspects into the mix of life.

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Hold on. If enjoying and craving are two separate things, then why should enjoyment have to be given up? It would seem that what needs to be given up is craving, not enjoyment. Craving is wanting something that ultimately is unsatisfying (because that which is craved cannot be attained). Enjoyment is being satisfied. What needs to be eliminated are cravings which bring suffering. Enjoyment occurs in the moment. If it is done mindfully, it would not seem necessary to eliminate it. On the contrary, one would think that it should be encouraged to enjoy things, as long as they are enjoyed mindfully. I don’t think the Buddha advocated for suffering by teaching people to abandon enjoyment. He taught that to eliminate suffering one should eliminate craving, which @Sumano has rightly noted is not the same thing as enjoyment. Q.E.D.

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Udāyī, these are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds known by the ear … Smells known by the nose … Tastes known by the tongue … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure—a filthy, ordinary, ignoble pleasure. Such pleasure should not be cultivated or developed, but should be feared, I say.

Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption. This is called the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of awakening. Such pleasure should be cultivated and developed, and should not be feared, I say. - From MN66

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