Thinking about your question further, I think I have understood better what you are getting at, and how it relates to Ven. Sujato’s ‘the body’s motion’.
I have to admit I hadn’t thought of the compound kāyasaṅkhāra in this way, i.e. what is being stilled are sankharas produced by the body. Or to put in a somewhat crude way, the body’s relentless march towards further problems.
But if one takes it the other way, which is what I had been doing, that what is being stilled is the ‘sankhara we call the body’, the net effect seems the same: when the body is stilled or tranquilized it stops conditioning future body and mental states, at least temporarily. Sankharas are halted, or at least slowed down.
To put it in a grammatical context, the first way to take the compound if I understand you correctly, is something like, ‘sankhara of/by the body’/ ‘bodily sankharas’, (active sense) and the second, ‘the sankhara which is the body.’ (passive sense)
The compound is singular.
Thank you for this interesting insight and conversation.
Thank you, for ‘cittasankhara’, my personal interpretation is it is about how the mind (citta) reacts towards the feelings of rapture & happiness. Thus ‘cittasankhara’ could be taken to mean ‘citta’s reaction’. While the definitions in MN 44 are helpful, I have now concluded (for my personal view) to not apply these definitions literally. To say steps 7 & 8 are literally about perception & feeling I now think is inaccurate. As said, for me, steps 7 & 8 are about how feeling affects the citta, i.e., about how the citta reacts to or is conditioned by the feelings. Therefore, the citta may generate greed, love, resentment, confusion, worry, attachment, even enlightenment, etc, towards the feelings.
Possibly/perhaps the volitions above from the unique passage from SN 22.57 arise after sense contact & are related to the craving (8th) condition of D.O., as follows from DN 22:
But where does that craving arise and where does it settle? Whatever in the world seems nice and pleasant, it is there that craving arises and settles.
And what in the world seems nice and pleasant? The eye in the world seems nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles. The ear … nose … tongue … body … mind in the world seems nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
Sights … sounds … smells … tastes … touches … thoughts in the world seem nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
Eye consciousness … ear consciousness … nose consciousness … tongue consciousness … body consciousness … mind consciousness in the world seems nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
Eye contact … ear contact … nose contact … tongue contact … body contact … mind contact in the world seems nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
Feeling born of eye contact … feeling born of ear contact … feeling born of nose contact … feeling born of tongue contact … feeling born of body contact … feeling born of mind contact in the world seems nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
Perception of sights … perception of sounds … perception of smells … perception of tastes … perception of touches … perception of thoughts in the world seems nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
Intention regarding sights … intention regarding sounds … intention regarding smells … intention regarding tastes … intention regarding touches … intention regarding thoughts in the world seems nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
Craving for sights … craving for sounds … craving for smells … craving for tastes … craving for touches … craving for thoughts in the world seems nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
Thoughts about sights … thoughts about sounds … thoughts about smells … thoughts about tastes … thoughts about touches … thoughts about thoughts in the world seem nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
Considerations regarding sights … considerations regarding sounds … considerations regarding smells … considerations regarding tastes … considerations regarding touches … considerations regarding thoughts in the world seem nice and pleasant, and it is there that craving arises and settles.
This is called the noble truth of the origin of suffering.
DN 22
What about SN 22.85 and MN 43, for example?
SN 22.85 seems to say the ending of the life of an Arahant is the ending of the five aggregates, including sankkhara.
MN 43 seems to say when entering Nirodha Samapatti (the domain of only Non-Returners & Arahants), the three sankhara of MN 44 end and one sankhara (ayu sankhara) remains.
Do Arahants, free from ignorance, not have sankhara khandha, kayasankhara, vacisankhara, cittasankhara & ayusankhara?
Mmm… in SN 54.11, the Buddha himself was said to have practised the 16 stages of Anapanasati, as follows:
“Mendicants, if wanderers who follow another path were to ask you: ‘Reverends, what was the ascetic Gotama’s usual meditation during the rainy season residence?’ You should answer them like this. ‘Reverends, the ascetic Gotama’s usual meditation during the rainy season residence was immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.’
SN 54.11
I think the above may rule out your omnipresent correlation between ignorance>sankhara and may also rule out my hypothesis here ‘sankhara’ means ‘conditioning’ or ‘reaction’.
It was previously suggested the Bhikkhu Dhammavuddho translation ‘conditioner’. This may cover all scenarios, namely, MN 44, unenlightened reactions in MN 118 and the Buddha’s experience in SN 54.11.
He becomes engaged with form, clings to it, and takes a stand upon it as ‘my self.’ He becomes engaged with feeling … with perception … with volitional formations … with consciousness, clings to it, and takes a stand upon it as ‘my self.’ These same five aggregates of clinging, to which he becomes engaged and to which he clings, lead to his harm and suffering for a long time. - SN 22.85
What ends for the arahant is the “desire and lust therein” (MN 44), i.e. the upadana (clinging) in regards to the five aggregates (described above as “my self”); and it was that very upadana - from the point of view of the aggregates - that was preventing the “disillusionment, dispassion and freedom” towards the whole nature of sankhara described in DN 17 earlier.
(That does sort of fold the nature of sankhara back onto itself, and I think that is precisely what the sutta that @stephen quoted earlier is describing (also from the POV of the aggregates, not explicitly DO): “saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti they construct conditioned volitional formations as volitional formations” -SN 22.79. It seems the matter has to be understood from two points of view, and only when that upadana in regards to the five aggregates has ceased can it be said that the experience is free from conceit; free from one of those points of view taking priority over the other. In other words, all the elements of that mass of suffering remain except that upadana that was a disorder to the whole matter. As a result - bearing in mind the description of sankhara in DN 17 (the possessions that are the basis of suffering) - all of those possessions, most notably - the five aggregates - remain, but no longer indicate suffering, Self, samsara. They are cut off like a palm stump. Yes, I realize that I’m out on a limb here lol)
As far as your question on MN 43, I think it is a matter of the action implied on account of those three sankhara no longer standing for the actions of a Self. Though, as we discussed recently in the other thread, it was not immediately evident that the principle, even at that level of action, was an insight into the broader implications of wrong view and being bound to samsara. In other words, speech, thinking and pondering and breathing remain as aspects of the experience of the arahant, but would lack the subtle yet treacherous significance of being the actions of “I am”. All in all, the arahant is free from the burden of that mass of suffering.
I don’t like this post of mine very much. It is theoretically sound, in that it sets up a framework that accords with the suttas we are discussing, but it is going to put us into the weeds. What I think is paramount in this whole topic is that “desire and lust” in regards to the aggregates described in MN 44. To get anywhere close to understanding why certain things are the sankhara of this mass of suffering the experience needs to be thoroughly developed in virtue, sense restraint, guarded sense doors, seeing danger in the slightest fault, etc… Point being, the only way any of this deeply theoretical information becomes practical is if the lifestyle and effort is properly developed. I’m not saying that this isn’t worth discussing. It is. I just didn’t want to leave this aspect out of the discussion.
