Can someone help me to understand the Yamaka Sutta (SN 22:85)?

This is not unreasonable and luckily Buddhism offers you just that and much more. :slight_smile: If you read the suttas on gradual training (just as MN27) it shows how just fulfilling the precepts gives rise to blameless happiness and practicing sense restraint leads to unsullied bliss. One of the best descriptions of this is in MN129 where it describes a person who lives their life according to the teachings of the Buddha. You just sit there and all of the good things you have done (and bad things you have restrained from) envelop you like the shadow of a mountain. No wonder the Buddha told not to fear good deeds. You might also be interested in suttas such as AN 11.1 that show how practicing this path actually feels like. It is about the right kind of pleasure all the way to seeing things as they truly are which propels you towards highest happiness.

Of course the questions still remains: is it possible to view cessation as the highest bliss and is the Buddhist view different from materialistic position of annihilationism? The answers are: yes and very much so. With cessation the process is again gradual and leads to deeper and deeper happiness that even surpasses the joy that arises when you live a good life and practice restraint. Actually living kindly leads to cessation already because the bad stuff in your mind starts to gradually disappear. You have to let go of coarser suffering first.

Having practiced the precepts and kindness in many other ways for a substantial period of time you sit down to meditate and observe that this cessation can go even further. If you reflect wisely you notice that when you let things fade away and cease it is very peaceful. Meditation is what happens when you let go of more and more of your experience aka the five khandas. And as suttas such as AN9.32 show this ends with a beautiful coolness of cessation. But the way to that cessation doesn’t happen through metaphysical pondering or spiritual depression but through happiness that is directly experienced by oneself little by little. And it is a natural process, once it gets going your mind just can’t resist the happiness and it starts to leap towards cessation of suffering. Even if you don’t like the idea of cessation you just have to grind your teeth and enjoy the process, lol. But again, this takes long-term training and lot of it has to do with developing your perceptions to appreciate the idea of cessation. I think here theory and practice meet beautifully.

So having faith in cessation is not just useless metaphysical view you subscribe to, it actually takes you further down on the path until you see the truth for yourself. If you don’t train your mind to understand why cessation is so beautiful it will always remain a mystery. And one part of that training is keeping your mind at least open to teachings you may find at the moment hard to accept.

Needless to say, the happiness and practice outlined here is something alien to materialists who want to enjoy the pleasures of the world and get out of existence at the same time.It would be nice if there was a free pass out of suffering as materialists hope but as a Buddhist you don’t get that. Instead you get a path that takes commitment, perseverance and also faith but gives you more and more happiness and fulfilment as time goes by. What more do you want?

I hope this answers at least some of you questions, at least indirectly.

Lots of metta.

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Thank you to everyone who responded! I really appreciate the time and energy you spent to help me understand a difficult topic. I’m sorry if I came off as combative at times… it’s a subject I care very much about and was hoping to receive a particular response. When that didn’t happen, I got frustrated. Please forgive me.

I wish you all the best and much progress in your practice!

With metta.

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@stu

I thought my response was pretty clear. I’m saying that as long as there’s the 3 poisons there’s a being, and when there’s no longer 3 poisons there’s no longer a being.

Here the Buddha doesn’t say “there is no being”

As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: “‘A being,’ lord. ‘A being,’ it’s said. To what extent is one said to be ‘a being’?”

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be ‘a being.’[3]

  • Satta sutta

It’s only when ignorance is fully destroyed that there is no longer bhava and one is no longer a being.

“When asked, ‘Are you a deva?’ you answer, ‘No, brahman, I am not a deva.’ When asked, ‘Are you a gandhabba?’ you answer, ‘No, brahman, I am not a gandhabba.’ When asked, ‘Are you a yakkha?’ you answer, ‘No, brahman, I am not a yakkha.’ When asked, ‘Are you a human being?’ you answer, ‘No, brahman, I am not a human being.’ Then what sort of being are you?”

"Brahman, the fermentations by which — if they were not abandoned — I would be a deva: Those are abandoned by me, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. The fermentations by which — if they were not abandoned — I would be a gandhabba… a yakkha… a human being: Those are abandoned by me, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

  • Dona sutta

Here the Buddha is saying if he still had fermentations he would be a being.

To say there is no being when craving is still present would be to claim one is an Arahant when they’re not.

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Ah yes. I think I see your problem with my statement. I was actually just responding to this quote, which I shall quote again here:

So the OP (and what I was responding to) was talking about an ‘Enlightened Being’. Would you agree that this is an oxymoron from a sutta perspective? My suggestion is simply, that because delusion has already been destroyed (i.e. we are talking about an arahant) there is already no ‘being’ to be annihilated , “at the death of an enlightened being”.

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Correct “Enlightened being” is an oxymoron from the sutta perspective.

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I’d like to give you another response to my previous response, which was a little short.

What’s wrong with believing an eternal self is that it priortizes what is future and non-evident (potential imaginary happiness) over what is present and evident (dukkha).

It is therefore a delusion, no different than someone fantasizing about being a billionaire when they don’t even have a job and are living on the street.

Or another metaphor: someone is covered in shit, and instead of taking a shower and being clean here and now, they fantasize about a future of being a fashion model celebrity.

So they are caught up in a dream in their head (aka identity view) rather than facing reality and pursuing what can actually be attained.

There’s a similar sutta about this topic, where mara says monks are fools for forfeiting pleasure now for a future nibbana, but the monks respond with something like they are actually giving up a future desire (sensual pleasures) for what is attainable here (peace and lack of desire).

So chasing eternalism is prioritizing what is not possible over what is possible here and now. It’s delusion.

You’ve gone forth while young, reverends. You’re black-haired, blessed with youth, in the prime of life, and you’ve never flirted with sensual pleasures. Enjoy human sensual pleasures. Don’t give up what is visible in the present to chase after what takes effect over time.”

“Brahmin, that’s not what we’re doing. We’re giving up what takes effect over time to chase after what is visible in the present. For the Buddha says that sensual pleasures take effect over time; they give much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. But this teaching is visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.”

  • SN 4.21

don’t try to eat the whole three course meal at once. just eat enough now to fill your belly. if you want dessert after dinner, then choose so to do at that time. for now salve your hunger.

the purpose of the buddha’s teachings is the ending of your own suffering here and now - just do that much - only what happens here and now. leave what happens at the higher level of practice to what happens then - that’s another you’s problem.

the only purpose of the buddha’s teaching is to end your suffering. if you focus on that there is reason to practice it. that’s the only reason to practice it.