Clear and Defined Path To Nibbana

The job to do and we so often forget, is to eliminate (completely get rid of): greed (non-essential Desires), hatred (fears/Aversions/ill-will) and Delusions (ignorance) - I call these three poisons DADs.
This job is the direct consequence of the first two truths: dukkha and the causes of dukkha. This job will result in experiencing nibbana (the third truth, the cessation of dukkha).
In order to do this job then we have to use the 8-fold path (the fourth truth) in a practical and effective way that bring results.

Unfortunately no dhamma teacher is teaching how to practically use the 8-fold path in order to eliminate these three poisons. That’s why we are our own refuge and take refuge in the dhamma (the four truths above). We will eventually discover for ourselves how to practically use the 8FP to achieve the above goal of removing one-by-one our DADs.
I have find a way to use the 8FP that works for me (I still have a bit of work to do with my specific DADs).
I have developed a Transforming Emotions course that I now present to interested people. I could email the course notes to interested people.

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I’ve done a number of retreats over the years, and I agree they can be very helpful. I’ve also lived in Buddhist communities.

The most interesting retreat I can remember was in Ireland, at Dzogchen Beara - fantastic location!
https://www.dzogchenbeara.org/about/

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I think I understand what you are saying. The Buddha-Dhamma - the EBT’s - is the go-to-place that informs your practice. Understanding the actual teachings of the Buddha as we find them in the EBT’s is the place where you have found everything you need to know about a clear and defined path to Nibbana.

You have also made it clear that not all the EBT’s are to be taken as the authentic teachings of the Buddha.

You don’t rely on the words of the students of the Buddha - contemporary teachers - as you have found this unnecessary and, potentially problematic. We can be mislead by lesser-lights so its best to go to the source of the illumination.

A problem that could arise with this approach is in relation to an accurate interpretation.

As we know, the early texts were recorded in ancient languages. Some are still in common use and, others are not. There may be multiple meanings that can be derived from the texts - divergent views and opinions may be formed.

This may lead to the absence of a clearly defined path to Nibbana?

Most of us are not Pali scholars so we rely on the consensus-view with regard to the meaning of the texts.

There seems be a lot of common ground held by the main translators. In most instances, where there are differences, they are easily understood. This has been my experience of the early teachings.

When someone comes along and completely reinvents the Dhamma-wheel we have to be aware of this fact. It would be gullible to rely on mavericks who follow their own interpretations and largely ignore others who have practiced well - don’t you think?

It seems that a clear comprehension of the teachings can be challenging whether we rely on our own interpretation of the early teachings, we rely on contemporary teachers or, we rely on our own meditation-related experience.

Challenging but not impossible!

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Just curiosity, but what choice are students forced to make?

A Goenka retreatrant told me that she was told she had to make a choice, at the end of the retreat (when they are most happy) that they had to choose Goenka as her teacher or not. I’ve never heard any other retreat ending by having to make that kind of a choice- unless its a Tibetan system I suppose, or a hindu Guru thing.

with metta

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Oh, I see. By the way, I practiced in Tibetan Buddhism for many years and never came across this kind of thing.

Of course, nobody can force anyone to practice in a particular way. I cannot remember the specific wording that Goenkaji used in the closing recording. What can be said, is it impressed upon the attendees of the course that they should not mix the body-scan practice with other practices.

The exception to this rule is ‘anapana’ meditation and ‘metta’ meditation. I don’t recall any other meditation practices that were taught at the camps I attended.

When it came to the anapana and metta techniques that were taught, these were also of a particular kind.

The metta technique was only introduced at the very end of the course. I am not sure if Goenkaji would have approved of many of the loving-kindness meditation practices that are in circulation. Particularly, those that involve visualisation techniques.

Goenkaji emphasised that what he was teaching had nothing to do with ‘imagination’. He believed that visualisation techniques were imaginative exercises so they could give rise to fantasies and delusions.

His metta technique was based on a theory of vibrations. The instructions involved charging subtle vibrations felt in the body with loving kindness. Then, sending out loving vibrations or, vibrations charged with loving kindness, out into the surrounding atmosphere.

I did experience subtle vibrations throughout the body - and many other experiences mental/physical - at the courses I attended.

He seemed to be saying that these vibrations are ‘actual’ physical phenomena that a practitioner can develop an awareness of. That does seem to happen in the practice.

The anapana technique Goenkaji taught was to keep the attention below the nostrils and above the upper lip. The focus could be narrowed to the area of the nostrils where the air entered.

Another awareness exercise is to notice through which nostril the air is passing. The flow of air passes at a varying rate between both nostrils.

With regard to ‘jhana’ I remember a recorded teaching - of Goenkaji - during the training camps. He said that people in the past had known how to practice these things but the art had been ‘completely lost’.

This lost art was not as efficacious as the body-scan technique because it only penetrated to superficial levels of the mind - levels that are deeper than ordinary waking consciousness.

It required the body-scan technique without ‘reactivity’ to penetrate into the mind to the level of the ‘old sankharas’ and purify the mind of its past reactions.

What is problematic about this explanation of the technique is there are other possibilities as to why the pleasant, painful and, neutral sensations arise while practicing it.

The Dhamma is apparent here and now, it is recognised because of its clarity and lucid description. It’s not opaque and mystifying to the perspicacious listener.

The greatest of theories is of little use if nobody can understand it without having to make a giant leap of faith - no matter how fascinating it may be.

When there is a heavy reliance on the views of a teacher without an ‘apparent’ and obvious explanation for what is actually taking place when we practice their teachings ‘we know’ we are in a situation where there’s no clear way forward.

The Buddha made it clear: his teachings are apparent, there is no reliance on awe and wonder or, strong experiences to determine there efficacy. Awakening is not an experience of any kind.

When it comes to the Buddha-Dhamma when something is unclear to us, we know it’s unclear and, when it’s clear we know it’s clear. The Buddha didn’t muddy the waters.

There is a theory of the ‘unconscious’ that is part of Goenkaji’s teachings. This is where the old-sankharas were said to be located. Through equanimity with sensation the old-sankharas come into the field of attention and cease.

These reactions to past experience were said to enter the field of attention through not reacting to the sensations felt in the body.

What I found unusual about Goenkaji’s account of Jhanas - as a lost art - was the fact that his own teacher did teach that Jhanas are important.

I have two books that are translations of U Ba Khin’s teachings that has an understanding of practice that is more in line with the EBT’s.

U Ba Khin was steeped in the early teachings. It would seem that the ‘Abbidhamma’ also plays an important role in that lineage.

The Jhanas are important in the teachings of Goenkaji’s teacher ‘Sayagyi U Ba Khin’. The first- jhana seems to be the goal of his anapana-instructions. ‘U Ba Khin’ also identified his teachings as ‘Buddhism’.

Somehow, for reasons that are not clear or specified, Goenkaji seems to have given his own twist to the teachings and practices he received from his teacher while insisting that others should adhere to his teachings assiduously.

The clear message that was given and recieved at the ‘Goenka-style course’ was a student should make a choice between practising as they were taught by Goenkaji or, not, but mixing the technique - the body-scan - with other practices should not be done.

If someone was foolhardy enough to do this it could lead to unwholesome and detrimental outcomes. The teacher knows best - take my word for it!

Its not clear how Goenkaji found out about the dangers and perils of mixing the body-scan technique with other techniques.

He seems to have come from a Brahmin-family and had some knowledge of the Vedas - and the Vedanta-tradition.

He then became a student of ‘U Ba Khin’ and never left and never experimented with other Buddhist practices and traditions. It may have been an anecdotal teaching past on through the lineage he belonged to?

Another clear message was the uniqueness and specialness of the technique that was taught, the source of which was the Buddha himself - this was the claim.

Unfortunately, this body-scan technique doesn’t seem to be a major theme in the Suttas. On the other hand, the lost art of the Jhanas is a central theme in the Suttas and, there relevance in the eightfold path.

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Very modestly put :slight_smile:

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This practice was part of a intensive metta period in my recent training, and it was unknown to me when doing it, but “citta” liked to do it. Very nice and subtle. Did walking/standing meditation with eyes closed and maneuvering by feeling and seeing vibrations around.

I don’t know about seeing vibrations around but feeling very subtle vibrations in the body does seem to happen.

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Don’t think about it, know it sounds fanzy smansy:wink:

Just a pleasant surprise to see your information about doing this as a formal training under a acknowledged teacher, and i discovering it by following mostly intuitiv awareness as main method for practice.

And my experience is that vibrations is felt as clear and far away as one’s stillness is grounded and stable.

Goenkaji also talked about feeling the vibrations of others. He said if someone is angry and next to you, particularly if they were directing anger at you, an advanced practitioner of the technique he taught could feel the charged vibrations as a sensation on the body.

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Right, that was experienced too, and has been experienced many times before and after. I guess you are familiar with the breath energy running through the body, and that energy is not so hard to develop and use in different ways

If you feel like discussing these things it might be best to start a new thread as we may be wandering off topic.

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I don’t feel for it, but maybe a relevance can be found in where do one find the clearest path?

Do one just need an hint of or just one simple teaching, and the rest of the path becomes visible by purification of the heart, not giving up, not knowing just going …

It’s quite a ride

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I highly recommend checking the sutta below:

:anjal:

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I am wondering if you mean translation, rather than interpretation, as you talk about ancient languages. A translator, is supposed to avoid interpretation as much as possible, and a noble translator would indicate when they were interpreting, rather than translating, as it would not always be possible to avoid it.

Certainly. I would say any interpretation should be held as inaccurate until one tested it and found it provided the release that the Buddha spoke of, e.g. the eradication of the 10 Fetters, but then one had only tested it for oneself, not the entire world. Any interpretation, based on wrong view, will be inaccurate and I believe, that is why, realisation of Right View is said to be the most important, very difficult and resulting in the eradication of the great majority of suffering.

This is covered by my understanding of the Path to Stream Entry, which is not included in the Noble Eightfold or Tenfold path, (but is spoken of quite clearly in the Pali texts), probably because those Noble paths would be the paths of those already Noble (Stream Enterers+).

As far as translating goes, without the study method I understand the Buddha gave for his teaching, the situation you mention was quite hopeless for me, with constantly having to use mindfulness to settle into resignation rather than depression. With the study method, slight variations in translations are made redundant. Because applying the definitions the Buddha gave for key terms, in which I have not seen any conflict in various translations, reveals a clear picture of the Buddha’s probable Right View, to then be tested.

In this sense, regarding key terms, I follow the consensus view you mention, just that I don’t accept multiple meanings, as promoted by commentators. I consistently apply those precise key term meanings given by the Buddha. That is how I believe ‘the/an unexcelled teacher’ would teach, to leave no room for confusion on important matters.

I don’t think we could possibly know when the Dhamma-wheel* is/has been reinvented till we realise Right View. We could also not know who has practised well.

(*I have shown ‘Dhamma-wheel’ to be a later externalisation of Dhamma-vision, in my study of 17 possible versions of the Dhammacakka sutta.)

I think it would be gullible to rely on anyone who follows their own interpretations, or that of a (respected/well established) tradition, (vis Kalama Sutta) and largely ignore the Buddha’s own advice on how to study his teaching.

The Buddha would have been considered a maverick by the established religionists. That doesn’t mean he was wrong.

If we investigate and test claims, we can prove or disprove them, as the Buddha did and teaches us to do. If we don’t want to do the work of ‘making a thorough investigation’ (both theoretically and practically) as the Buddha advised, then we can rely on interpretations from ourselves, or the established religionists, or our own experience, devoid of texts. In the latter case, I think there would be no need to use the word ‘Buddha’ or derivatives.

best wishes

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I don’t think U Ba Khin practices the body scan, or is that inaccurate?

Sometimes, I think to myself, why listen to disciples of the Buddha when I can just try to go straight to source and try to listen to the Buddha by trying to directly examine the Dhamma-Vinaya taught by him?

The first thought that came to mind is that the clearest explanation and step-by-step description of the path to Nibbana is the Noble Eightfold Path. Though this might sound obvious, it seems easy to forget and seems worth remembering and re-remembering.

The Buddha seems claim that his unique discovery that was not yet made by any other being in this historical era prior to his arising is very specifically the Noble Eightfold Path, which he seems to claim is both necessary and sufficient to attain Nibbana.

The entire Dhamma-Vinaya provided by the Buddha seems to be a support for beings to carefully tread this path, the Noble Eightfold Path, to Nibbana, the end of dukkha (sadness), or unconditional happiness (happiness that does not depend on conditions).

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I agree. It is always best to go to the Buddha’s words over his disciples.

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