Communist holocaust (100mil) - the most forgotten victims on earth

The Watercooler
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I would like to rise awareness about the victims nobody wants to hear about: Victims of Communism.
They happen to be the most forgotten victims in the world because, unlike Nazism, Communism has not been properly condemned in the west because of political reasons.

Jew holocaust: 6 million
WW2 total deaths: over 60 million
Communist holocaust: over 100 million

Besides 100mil+ number of people executed or killed in labor camps, the problems of poverty and oppression affected everybody. 1/3 of the world was forced to live in unimaginable poverty and oppression.

In 1990, most communist countries were standing at 1,600$ pib per capita. But free market economy managed to save some of them after communism collapsed. After a decade of stagnation called “tansition period” where all communist states stagnated, those who adopted liberal economy managed to rise. My country rose from 1600$ to about 10.000$. The more capitalistic the country, the better it was after 89 as shown by this graph:

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:BGR:ROM:POL:UKR:MDA&ifdim=region&hl=ro&dl=ro&ind=false

Now take a look at the grapth with USA included:

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:BGR:ROM:POL:UKR:MDA:USA&ifdim=region&hl=ro&dl=ro&ind=false

And on top of starvation, lack of electricity, lack of toilet paper etc. the big problem that everybody hated was oppression. Having a strange haircut got you in jail. Making a bad joke about the regime or communism in general got you in jail. Complaining in any way about the country put you in jail. Listening to “Radio Europa Libera” got you in jail. Not showing your respects to police or important people got you in touble - and where could you go to complain ? You could also be put in jail or labor camp arbitrarely or by mistake. Good luck complaining about it. This created huge fear in society that even today has not fully disappeared from people hearths, some still maintaining this fear mentality. The reason it was so much fear was because anybody could snitch on you. Your neibourghs, your family members, anybody could snitch on you for a reward and get you in the labor camp. Not snitching put you in jail too. The government can never control the people with their 10,000 secret police. The way repressive regimes control people is by making them turn on each other. Romania in particular was very repressive, been one of the few countries in the world to be run like North Korea - meaning with as much repression as it could be enforced on you. One Theravada Buddhist country suffered an even worse fate than Romania. 25% of Cambodgia population was massacred by Pol Pot regime.

Today, free market economy has taken most communist countries out of poverty. But there are still places in the world where such a thing was attempted, such as Venezuela : Venezuela Is Falling Apart - The Atlantic

Many people in the west are completely unaware of what communism means and wear T-shirts with Che Guevara or Mao Zaedong, people responsible for the biggest holocaus in modern human history. Victism of nazism are well represented in the curriculum of many universities but the same can not be said about victims of communism witch are basically invisible, put under the carpet because of political reasons. It would be good if one day, they will be taken out of the carpet and awareness about the problem will rise. Despite the 100 million figure, much more bigger than 6 million jews + 1/3 of world population living in hell, - communism has not been properly condemned to this day.

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Only opposition that was impossible to censor was the famous Radio Europa Libera with their headquaters in Paris. If a neighbor heard you listening to this radio, you got in big trouble. Ceauchescu even hired the terrorist Carlos the Jackal to bomb them. He succeeded but luckily nobody got killed. Here is the into that was the only sparkle of hope for so many people during those dark communist days:

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First,
Not properly condemned? You are probably too young to know, but during the cold war there has been anti-communist witch hunting all throughout the Western World.

Also, in 2006 the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe accepted resolution 1481:

[Need for international condemnation of crimes of totalitarian communist regimes]

http://assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/XRef/Xref-XML2HTML-en.asp?fileid=17403&lang=en

Numbers of victims caused by communism -directly or indirectly- vary widely and it is very difficult to come up with an exact, scientifically proven number.

We should not forget that communism not necessarily was wrong as a system, but its leaders were.

There is one type of victims that is even more forgotton than the victims of communism: The victims of capitalism. And their number is growing by millions every year.
Ranging from victims, for example deprived by health care, even in such a rich country as the US, to victims caused by exploitation for example in Africa.

Sure, we should not forget about the victims caused by communism, but that mostly is part of the past unlike the victims caused by capitalism each day again.

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Isn’t 2006 a little too late ? Why did it take so much time ? And been officially condemned is one thing, been properly condemned is another. Properly condemned is Nazism, unproperly condemned is communism despite much higher number of victims. Also, that resolution was adopted by the EU but there are individual EU countries who had not officially condemned it to this day.

Numbers of victims caused by communism -directly or indirectly- vary widely and it is very difficult to come up with an exact, scientifically proven number.

Are you also one of those who claim only half a million jews were killed in WW2 ?

We should not forget that communism not necessarily was wrong as a system, but its leaders were.

Then tell me a single communist country that was not in poverty. A single communist country that did not end up in abject poverty. A single one. Communist has been tried probably 100 times already, even recently in Venezuela. Every time it ends up in abject poverty. Name me a single communist country that was rich.

Einstein said the definition of insanity is tying the same thing over and over and expecting different results…

There is one type of victims that is even more forgotton than the victims of communism: The victims of capitalism. And their number is growing by millions every year.
Ranging from victims, for example deprived by health care, even in such a rich country as the US, to victims caused by exploitation for example in Africa.

I am afraid you are confusing victims of capitalism with victims of realpolitiks. All contries, be them capitalist, communist, absolute monarchies, theocracies etc. - all engage in real politiks. For example the Vietnam war was a proxy war between US and URSS. It can not be blamed on capitalism or on communism. About recent victims: 200.000 in Iraq, 60.000 in Lybia and 450.000 in Syria. Witch of course are victims of realpolitiks not victims of capitalism or communism.

About slavery, you may be unawere of the fact that slavery was abolished in eastern europe at the same time black slavery was abolished in US. 90% of the population in estern europe were slaves, 5% aristocracy and 5% priest. Also, not only were people in slavery but countries were literaly rented to whoever payed the most. For example Romania was rented for 3 centuries by the Otomans to rich merchants from the neibourghood of Fanar, hence the name “Fanariot Period”. These then did their best to extract as much money as possible form the country.

Sure, we should not forget about the victims caused by communism, but that mostly is part of the past unlike the victims caused by capitalism each day again.

Under the carpet with them. We do not want to hear about them. We want to hear only about other victims that do not disturb our political views. We want to hear about the 6 million jews, about iraqis - not about those 100 million people killed by the communist. Those are people of the past, we do not want to hear about them.

Also, if communist victims are not too important because “that mostly is part of the past” - then how about victims of slavery ? Do you have the same opinion about them ? Are victims of slavery also “mostly just part of the past” ???

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No, I am not into history - so no claims there at all.

China, its GDP per capita is not that different from your capitalist Romania.
Even Cuba is not doing that bad measured in GDP per capita compared with several capitalist countries.

Dream on :slight_smile:
See: Iraq invasion was about oil | Environment | The Guardian

Capitalist greed, nothing more, nothing less. Destabilised the whole region. All these victims - caused by capitalism.
And you don’t even try to answer what I said about poor people in capistalist countries dying because they don’t get (proper) health care.

Yes. The past is the past. I don’t believe in remembering history.
L’histoire se répète, history repeats itself - yes, but always in a slightly different way and in different places with different persons. Mankind does not learn from history. Think about the Rwandan Genocide, the whole world stood by and did nothing. Think about the Yugoslavian wars. Think about the US and its European allies that invaded the sovereign country of Iraq for no good reason, destabilising the whole region as said above.
While we remember WW2 and the Holocaust every year we close our eyes to what is happening right now, in the present.

To finish, I wonder why you bring this up in a Buddhist forum.

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China was standing at 1600$ too until they adopted free market economy witch made them rise up just like Romania. China is a free market economy with a dictator, just like Russia. You honestly did not know that China is a free market economy ? Speaking of witch, switching to free market economy got 1 billion people out of abject poverty in China alone.

About Cuba, they have started liberalizing their economy since the 2000’s. Before that, they were in abject poverty too. And even today after a decade of liberalization and switching to free market, the 7000$ pib per capita of Cuba and China are much lower than the 55.000$ of US or western europe or Japan or other countries. Real communist counties are standing, as usual, at 2000$ pib per capita. Even Rep. Moldova in the middle of europe is doing the same.

Yes. The past is the past. I don’t believe in remembering history.
L’histoire se répète, history repeats itself - yes,

Well that’s why it keeps repeating itself :smiley: There will always be a guy out there saying “true communism was never tried” or “true nazism was never tried” etc.

Think about the Yugoslavian wars. Think about the US and its European allies that invaded the sovereign country of Iraq for no good reason, destabilising the whole region as said above.

I’ll never understand how one can have such a simplistic understanding of wars. Every war that happens on this globe, it’s all US capitalist fault. It’s like speaking with Lenin in person.

  1. Yugoslavia war was because of a failed multicultural experiment, tying to unite 7 different countries in one. Americans took sides in the war on the part of Croatia. Just like Romania supported Serbia. I’m a Serbia supporter too but if we want to be fair, let’s accept that Serbia did concentate most of the resources and military power of yugoslavia in the serbian region. It was normal for others to have a problem with this at a point. Everybody knew it will fall apart at Tito death.

  2. Iraq invaded for no good reason ? Then tell me why did Sadam invade Iran ? Or why did Sadam invade Kuwait ? If you live by the sward, you die by the sword. Sadam did not own that country. He did not inherit the country from his father or grandfather. He was made the dictator of that country because of realpolitiks, because of URSS puting him there by using their influence. He was also of the minority sunni sect and the overwhealming shiite majority did not like him. The people who put him in charge (URSS) did not object to his removal. Nobody vetoed his removal, like it happened with Assad in Syria where his removal was vetoed by Russia and China. If Sadam was a democraticly elected president changed every 5 years and supported by majority population, then you could say that “this is Sadam country” and what happened was something bad.

  3. You do not seem to understand wars are waged because of realpolitiks. Was the Afganistan war, the invasion of Checkoslovakia, etc. - because of communism ? Or were them because of realpolitiks ? All wars that happen, happen because of realpolitiks. When we speak about victims of an ideology, we speak about domestic victims living in those countries. Communism killed 100million of their citizen. How many of their own citizens did free market democracies kill ???

  4. About people dying because of heathcare in free market countries: Where do you think more people die ? In US 55.000 per capita or in a 1600$ pib per capita country ? Even in today Romania standing at 10.000, healthcare system is absolutely garbage compared to western europe for the simple fact of been poor and having primitive technology. We do have free hearthcare, but what good is it if hospitals are garbage ? Look at some statistics about heathcare in Ro vs USA or western europe. Look at life expectency, etc. You really don’t seem to understand that 1.600$ vs 10.000$ vs 55.000$ are not just some numbers on a paper. You’ve probably never watched videos or google street view places outside US or Western europe, let alone live in such places for a long period of time.

To finish, I wonder why you bring this up in a Buddhist forum.

Just like a jew holocaust remembering topic has been created here and nobody had a problem with it, I said a communist victims memorial would be much more important. Most Buddhist, as you may have noticed, are from US and are quite leftist. Few of them are as extreme-left as to be communist holocaust apologetics, like you have tried been. Few of them would say that “true communism was never tried” or “true nazism was never tried” But nevertheless, they have rarely been informed about this because it’s not taught in school because of political reasons.

I know these communism victims are disturbing to those who hold extreme-left political views. But that is why it’s good to hear arguments from the other side from time to time. Otherwise we end up like in this sketch from SNL. (only anti-left sketch they ever did, but a very good one) :

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You are being very cynical my friend, and you make your own definitions.
For me, victims are victims, whether they fall abroad or at home.

And where do you think more people die because of poor healthcare or the lack of it: in (pure) capitalist countries like the US or in countries with mixed economies ( Mixed economy - Wikipedia ) like those in Western Europe?

I did not say such a thing, it would behove you refraining from making false accusations.

I’m not left nor right or I am both :slight_smile:
Furthermore, I am not denying the victims of communism.
I just pointed out that capitalism makes a lot of victims, too - millions yearly, by wars, by depriving the poor of healthcare, by exploiting African countries and so on.

I rest my case.

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I don’t know if you understand what capitalist and communist means. Capitalist means free market economy. Then, having this starting point, you can then rise taxes or lower taxes and use these taxes imposed on a free market economy to do whathever you want with them. Communism means planned economy. It means something that has never ever worked in the history of human kind.

I agree that US is one of the most right-wing in terms of economy from western nations and both US parties are right wing by european standards. But that has nothing to do with capitalism or communism. Communism means planned economy, nationalization of private property, etc.

I’m not left nor right or I am both

And I’m the Pope :smiley:

I just pointed out that capitalism makes a lot of victims, too - millions yearly, by wars, by depriving the poor of healthcare, by exploiting African countries and so on.

The usual conspiracy theories about african countries been poor because they are exploited. They are poor because they started late and many are governed in absolute ridiculous ways. Are you also one of those russian propaganda fans that say easten european counties that joined EU are slaves of US, exploited and impoverished by the EU and US ? :)))))

About victims due to lack of healthcare. As I said, check statistics and tell me witch is doing better in terms of healthcare, life expectancy etc. : US with 55.000pib per capita or Romania with free healthcare but 10.000 pib per capita ? Or maybe Rep. Moldova with 1,800 pib per capita basically been in the middle ages ? You tell me who is doing better based on statistics. In what country are more people dying because of bad healthcare: US, Romania or Rep. Moldova ?

As for victims because of wars, those are victims due to realpolitiks. Russia killed quite a lot of people with it’s wars. It also has 5 undercognized territories filled with russian “peace keeping forces” in their former soviet vassal states and wages war when they want independence. Check Ukraine, Rep Moldova 1991 war, Georgia, etc. Theocracy has quite a lot of blood on it’s hands too if we count wars in. Wars have nothing to do with capitalism or communism or theocracy or etc. - they are all about realpolitiks. As I’ve said earlier, those who do not like realpolitiks simply do not understand it. Been mad at realpolitiks is like been mad at an earthquake or been mad at a flood. That is simply how things work on this earth and even in deva realms. We’re not living in an utopia and not even deva realms are an utopia.

When we speak about victims of an ideology, we speak of domestic people killed for no reason. Like the 6 million jews killed by Nazism, 100 million people killed by the communist, etc. Free market democracy has never killed it’s own citizens, has never put them in labor camps, has never imposed criminal oppression on them. But it’s easy to disregard the importance of freedom when you’ve never experienced oppression yourself.

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You are making assumptions while you don’t know me.

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Don’t tell me you’re actually from an ex-communist state and are an apologetic of them. Or that you’re from somewhere in the middle east. Tell me in what country and under what oppressive regime have you lived ? And also, in what PIB per capita ?

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As I was a teenager in the '80’s, even living in the Netherlands, there was oppression for me, as a gay man.

To quote you:

“Free market democracy has never killed it’s own citizens, has never put them in labor camps, has never imposed criminal oppression on them.”

Gay men, the generation before me, have been criminalised, also in the Netherlands.

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Have you tried been a gay man in a communist state in the 80s ? Maybe you would change your opinion about netherland 80s after that.

… While of course also living in 1600$ pib per capita and brutal oppression. (not discrimination)

Would you have prefered living as a gay man in a communist country in the 80s ? :slight_smile: Even today, you would not like it

In Romania, you would have been sent to prison for been gay in communism. And a single neighbor snitching about it would have been enough to catch you. And good luck complaining about it to the sky.

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You asserted:

I showed your assumption was wrong. Making comparisons does not make a difference.
For gay men in the Netherlands in the '60s, the difference was not that big or the same as for gay men in Romania in the '80s. And no, The Netherlands have never been a communist country.

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And I showed you what real oppression means. Discrimination is one thing. Oppression is another. As a gay man in romania you would have been sent to prison and you would have been easy to catch because neighbors would have snitched on you. A single guy been suspicious of you would make you not sleep at night. That is why gay people of that time did it in public toilets because it was extemely risky to come with another person at home. And you could not move to another country of course. If you tried doing that, you would be put in the labor camp. Actually I’m quite surprised punishmen for been gay was only prison and not labor camp.

And this would have been just a small little problem in your life on top of starvation, lack of electricity, having just 2 hours of TV a day all of ridiculous propaganda, living in an apartment as big as a box etc.

To make matters worse for a gay person, that would have got you registered in official papers. And even when u got out of prison you would suffer because apartments and jobs were handed over by the state. So you would be guaranteed to get the smallest apartment, worst job etc. So just imagine the fear of been caught doing that by a neighbor.

Do you now understand the difference between discrimination and oppression ?

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It was not different in Western, capitalist countries.
In the US it took until 2003 before all states had decriminalised homosexuality.

Until the '70’s /'80’s it was barely different for gay men living in capitalist countries / the same kind of oppression.

You don’t need to teach me the difference between discrimination and oppression. By the way, you cannot seperate these two things, they go hand in hand.

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Check this article about basically all estern and central european countries, be them EU or not, exporting weapons to terrorist in Syria:

Check what Serbia PM had to say about the problem. For them, it’s like selling vegetables. If they do not sell, others will sell instead of them. Serbia is an ally of Russia and they are selling weapons to the factions fighting against Russia. Biggest exporters seem to be Serbia, Bulgaria and Croatia, the first 2 been very friendly with Russia.

Also, check this article and commentars from today: https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/5w7ehn/croatia_profits_from_syrias_gruesome_war/

I read in an earlier report that Saudi Arabia bought 300 tanks from a Balkan country. Is there any truth to that? Besides that, how much stockpiled weaponry does the Balkans have left over up for sale?

I think they bought Abrahms tanks from the US, I know Canada signed a 15 billion dollar deal with Saudis back in 2014 for APC and other military vehicles. Former Yugoslavia pretty much made weapons from like mid 50’s till early 90s 24/7 at all their military factories. There is so much left over even after all the wars to export for decades.

Not to mention what Russia is doing with their Tranzistria unrecognized area where a journalist was able to buy a missile. They are selling weapons all around the globe with absolute impunity. So before criticizing US and EU, better look at what others are doing. This is simply the world you are living in and even in deva realms there are wars. Idealist who do not like this world should move to another planet cause this one is not changing anytime soon. They should be glad relatively decent countries like those in the west exist and should support them.

Also, check what the communist were doing during the cold war. All were stockpiling weapons like crazy. Look how a country like Ethiopia managed end up having 2200 tanks. Or look how every communist dictatorship in the world needed to try developing nuclear weapons at some point or at least ballistic missiles. You’re not a proper communist without those. Even Romania tried: Romania and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia

Criticizing the west is one thing, refusing to acknowledge the west is without a doubt the good guy on this round globe is a terrible mistake. “Criticize what it is to criticize, praise what it is to praise”

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And you know what people hate about communist ? They always do propaganda claiming the exact opposite thing of what they are doing. For example there can be criminal oppression but have “freedom” as their nr 1 theme of propaganda. Or look for example at this part of the article:

Despite of this secret program, Ceauşescu’s government did organize massive rallies against nuclear proliferation. For instance, at one such rally in December 1981, he addressed a crowd of 300,000 arguing that people in both East and West should “stop those who are preparing atomic war.”[5] He also urged the US and USSR to end the arms race which led to the placement of medium-range nuclear missiles in Europe, arguing that only by stopping this race could “humanity … be saved from a catastrophe”.[6]

In 1989, Ceauşescu claimed that Romania had the technology to build nuclear weapons, but that he remained “firmly resolved to fight against nuclear weapons”

Standard communism

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By the way, Nazism = national socialism.

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