Conceiving, a disease

The Watercooler
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I believe the Buddha in essence :blush: is only making clear that we must stop thinking we can know and understand and grasp Dhamma and reality by conceiving.

Also, all these thoughts about atta, essence, substance, exist, not exist, both etc are merely the products of a conceiving mind. But what do the suttas say about conceiving?

-By conceiving we are bound by Mara. By not conceiving one is freed from the Evil; One (SN22.64)
-Conceiving is a disease in the discipline of the Buddha, One must train in a mind without conceiving (SN35.248)
-SN35.30 and SN35.31, SN35.32 teaches the appropriate way for uprooting all conceivings.

So, all this conceiving that is really not the training. That is not the Path to come to understand Dhamma and reality. It is a disease in the discipline of the Buddha.

But what is the honest and naked truth?

*We are fond and strongly in love with conceiving. We cannot stop it.
The worlds turns around conceiving.

It is not a quality. It is more like an obsession. If you look in all honesty how easily the mind inclines to conceiving, then you see it is such a strong addiction.
It is quit easy to abandon smoking compared to the addictive power behind conceiving.

There is such a strong natural habit to become involved in ideas, views, thinking, reasoning, conceiving while also this is not seen as appropriate.
It is hard to maintain presence for 5 seconds, i feel, because the mind is again lost in conceivings.

This is the naked and honest truth, i feel.

All these ideas about atta, substance, essence, opposites, existence and non-existence, both, nor…it are all products of the slavery of conceiving. It is only imprisonment of the heart. It is no richness.

I feel it is only good to see how strong this addiction is.

Meanwhile, the world is becoming more and more involved in conceiving.

This has reached such a point that people do not even notice anymore that dimension free from conceiving. The more we are involved in conceiving the less we are really in touch with Dhamma, with reality, with truth.

It is quit worrying. Asankhata, that domein without conceiving and conceit works stabilizing but conceiving works polarizing. That is what is happening.
People have no idea of a common ground. Their identity is fully determined by conceiving and conceit. I feel this is also only getting worse.

To be honest, i do not know if this is merely caused by our way of living or is there something else going on?

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If people did not create mental formations, words and utterances about the Path through the utilisation of language,
How would you or I ever come to know about it?

Maybe a ceaseless habitual conceiving or conceptualisating rooted in ignorance is what is to be let go?

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I also believe that things like conceiving, thinking, me and mine making do not become inabilities, but are freed. They are not a fetter anymore. Indeed as habitual inclinations they cease. That is what i believe. But i believe a Buddha can still conceive, think, and has still a functional me and mine making. But not as fetters.

The main issue with conceiving , i believe, is that it is such a strong tendency. One is just 1 minute observing the breath and suddenly one finds oneself in a state of conceiving. And think about meeting other people. Probably one is immediately absorbed in conceivings. And what happens is that this cinematic story like mental world that becomes our reality. And it is experiences as true, substantial. Certainly not as empty formations, certainly not as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Not like foam, without substance. No, for us conceiving is very substantial! Oh it is so important. Because most the the time it is our world.

What a world of difference it is to be absorbed in conceiving or just be present. And how easily the mind becomes involved in conceivings, right?

It is also amazing i feel that one can circle around in conceiving and believe that is all true, reality, as it is, but one can also step out of it, as if it has no meaning at all but the meaning one gives it by feeding this constant loupe of conceiving.

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There is also an addiction to thinking, to forming standpoints, being involved in ideas. We seem to well aware of the shackle of the 5 senses, but not the intellectual shackle.

Ofcourse one can feel happy in thinking, hammering out, reasoning, involvement in ideas, coming to standpoints… just like one can feelhappy being involved in other sense domains, but also this happiness in thinking, in standpoints, must not be confused with love for Dhamma. It is also just a form of raga. Craving for ideas, standpoints.

I believe this is also why some buddhist schools also do not give much attention to all kinds of doctrinal issues because there is never an end to discussing all this and forming standpoints about it. And meanwhile only suffering arises and the intellectual shackle only becomes stronger and stronger.

What i see in my self is that if one start to insist on standpoints, on things that one owns, in fact only the false notion of being an owner grows. It is always really only about my self. And it feeds the demon.

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The tetralemmas are all conceivings, and conceiving is an illness in the discipline of the Buddha. It is always otherwise then conceived. One must also not conceive the khandha’s. Also that is not the training.

By conceiving we are bound by Mara (SN22.64)

“Moreover, by completely surmounting the base of neitherperception- nor-non-perception, a true man enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This bhikkhu does not conceive anything, he does not conceive in regard to anything, he does not conceive in any way.” MN113

The whole point, to me at least, seems that all this thinking in terms of atta, survival or not after death, exist and not exist, these are the symptom of a grasping and conceiving mind. That cannot stop trying to understanding reality by means of concepts and conceiving. But it is only trapped in her own fabrications.

The wise one has transcended conceivings…(SN1.25)

All Conceiving must be uprooted (SN35.30, SN35.31)

"Bhikkhus, being stirred is a disease, being stirred is a tumour, being stirred is a dart. Therefore, bhikkhus, the Tathagata dwells unstirred, with the dart removed. Therefore, bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu should wish, 'May I dwell unstirred, with the dart removed!’ he should not conceive the eye, should not conceive in the eye, should not conceive from the eye, should not conceive, ‘The eye is mine.’
"He should not conceive forms . . . eye-consciousness . . . eyecontact … and as to whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition . . . he should not conceive that, should not conceive in that, should not conceive from that, should not conceive, 'That is mine.’

The same is said of all sense domains.

After this is said: “He should not conceive all, should not conceive in all, should
not conceive from all, should not conceive, ‘All is mine.’ "Since he does not conceive anything thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbana, He understands:
'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.”’ (SN35.90, see also SN35.91)

The grasping, passionate mind, is always busy trying to get a grip on reality by way of conceiving. By way of logic and positionings, such as those tetralemma. But this is not the Path.

And although Buddha also has methods that make good use of conceiving, in the end conceiving distorts the way things exist and happen.

This world of conceiving, and especially our search for grip via conceiving, is quit amazing. So strong. Being absorbed in conceiving and taking that for reality at that moment, is exaclty what delusion means. Because being absorbed in conceiving one really thinks that reality is a story about a me/atta and about others, or a me who wants praise or is hurt. Or me who survives death or not. All products of conceiving. And never dispassionate.

But what is actually true about this? Where is this story if conceiving ends? Where is this reality when conceiving ends? Quit amazing i feel.

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Many thanks for this post Green :anjal:

I have always wondered if conceiving and proliferation (papanca) were one in the same, and according to this

that you referenced, seems to suggest that they are, thank you :slightly_smiling_face:

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Conceiving here means imagining (maññamāna) an atta. From that various views, theories and philosophies do flow.

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Conceiving here means imagining (maññamāna) an atta.

These are your words, not the texts’ or Buddha’s.

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There is no other atta then an imagined or conceived one. That is the message of the Buddha, i believe. Because everything is what it is. Rupa is rupa, vedana is vedana, sanna is sanna, sankhara is sankhara, vinnana is vinnana, Nibbana is Nibbana, earth is earth etc. Making an atta of it, is a deed of conceiving earth, conceiving vinnana, conceiving Nibbana etc. It cannot be otherwise.

Buddhas teachers were not able to escape this extreme strong habit of conceiving.
They were not able to stop conceiving based upon arupa jhana. But, then all goes wrong. One must train to stop conceiving of whatever is being known (MN1 and many others).

Conceiving is a proces that starts habitually based upon what is felt, perceived, known. It is a very strong habitual reflex upon what is felt, perceived, known. Not per choice. For a non-arahant, it is passionate of nature because it is habitual.