so where’s the data or information of past lifes come from ? if consciousness is impermanent this data have to be impermanent too which means it’s unrecoverable, the fact that it’s could still be recovered even after trillions years means there’s a permanent “storage” which stored and saved it
However, in MN 111 it is described that even in the 4th arupa sphere there is no awareness, and one has to get out of this attainment to check what was and what was not there. Especially in nirodha samapati, which is devoid of feeling and perception. And you are wrong that this state cannot be achieved just because there is no awareness in it that could register it! Perception and feeling - 1. Fickle (can be interrupted) 2. depend on the cause, with the cessation of the cause, they cease. The cause of feeling and perception is contact and attention. Ignoring the basis of the 4th Arupa-sphere, having broken off contact with all objects, the Buddha ceases perception and feeling. And he knows for sure that they are stopped, because he has knowledge of what they come from - from contact and attention. Moreover, an arahant can examine past and future aggregates.
Yes, there is such a state and it is called the perception of cessation. I wrote about it above. And there is also another state in which all perceptions cease completely.
In this sutta, the Buddha says even more clearly that this is the 2nd Arupa Realm. because the four great elements (a-rupa) do not find support in it. But only with the cessation of consciousness, name and form cease completely. And with the cessation of consciousness, everything stops. This is how the Buddha sums up this passage. This means that the cessation of consciousness leads to the cessation of all of the above.
Consciousness is not part of the name, within the framework of the teachings of the sutta.
Where did you find even a word about a certain consciousness here? ) The suttas often mention that each jhana is nirvana in a conventional sense, and the cessation of a part of dukkha. while in nirvana all dukkha ceases. In the arūpa sphere, the four elements are unsupported, and in the nirodha-dhatu, the four elements are also unsupported. but in the arūpa sphere the mind finds support, and in nirodha the mind does not find support either.
Actually, this sutta describes the same perception of the dhamma of nibbana. What I wrote about above.
No. We should not distort the original text, but look at the terms in Pali. It is clearly stated there that it is infinite (anantam) consciousness (vinnyanam). The Buddha talked about it very often in the suttas. As well as about consciousness, subtle and rough, base and sublime - any - impermanent, suffering.
Where does it say that Nibbana radiates anything? Show at least one sutta where the Buddha says that Nibbana is consciousness or that Nibbana shines with something. The definition of Nibbana is the cessation of craving which leads to a new existence. craving is the cause of the aggregates. Cessation of craving = eradication of the aggregates. This is the definition of nibbana by the Buddha himself. why do you put into his mouth what he did not say, distort his teaching?
No, there is nothing to be confused with. It is said that this consciousness is infinite and the second formless sphere is also consciousness infinite. This consciousness is called invisible and the consciousness of the 2nd Arupa of the sphere is also invisible, that is, formless, like space. In this consciousness the four elements are unsupported and in the 2nd Arupa sphere the four elements are unsupported.
These are your fantasies
the five aggregates is a term that by definition includes ALL kinds of consciousness. The Buddha emphasizes this. The consciousness you invented fits the definition of the sublime and refined, that is, it is included in the five aggregates.
Liberation from defilements and clinging does not liberate it from impermanent nature. Rather, it releases from future fixation in a new mind and form, regeneration in the future.
This passage is just meant to destroy a view like yours. You are an example of such affection. The Buddha speaks of a special inclination of people to cling to consciousness and lists all possible variants of consciousness, mentality, calls all of them impermanent and unworthy of clinging to them.
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There is not a word in the suttas that consciousness is permanent and not passive - 1. There is a clear statement in the suttas that ALL consciousnesses are impermanent and unstable - 2. There is a clear indication in the suttas that there is no such consciousness that would be stable. - 3. What more proof do you need. Read the nail sutta, where Monks ask the same question as you and the Buddha unequivocally answers it. And please bring suttas that would state that there is a permanent consciousness.
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I really want to believe that all consciousness are impermanent I just want to know the answer to that question some say this data is in sub conscious mind but is this sub conscious mind permanent or not if it’s impermanent the data it contains should be impermanent too if the data is impermanent then there’s no way to retrieve it, it would be lost forever but since Buddha and even some arahants can retrieve this data there must be some permanent or at least long life consciousness which exists longer than the body but Buddha said mind is more impermanent than the body so this all become source of confusion to me
As a former Zen practitioner myself, I recognize that “unlearning”. In the EBTs I found clarity that illuminated Zen teachings with a humble yet elegant simplicity.
For example, notice that consciousness is required for this awareness:
AN6.2:3.2: They understand mind with greed as ‘mind with greed’,
AN6.2:3.3: and mind without greed as ‘mind without greed’.
This “mind without greed” is critical because the relishing of greed-encumbered consciousness is the root of suffering:
MN1:171.4: Because he has understood that relishing is the root of suffering,
From this we can understand that the end of suffering requires the relinquishing of relishing. That relinquishing takes practice, i.e., it is consciously conditioned.
The realization of the unconditioned can be understood from examples such as:
SN43.12:2.3: And what is the unconditioned?
SN43.12:2.4: The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.
Asian cultures don’t emphasize the individual as much as Western culture. So the transition of Zen to the West has had to deal with the additional burden of the West’s focus on “I-ness”. This burden has made Zen teaching a bit more mystical and opaque than it needs to be. It has led to weird advice such as “be one with the baseball” as you catch a baseball. What they all have in common is a mental shift from “I am doing X” to “doing X”. That mental shift is culturally implicit in Asian cultures yet somewhat difficult for the West. So in the west we have tended to make new labels for this experience (e.g., “flow”) to capture the peculiar sensation of non-self-referential consciousness.
The pragmatic language of the suttas has been quite a boon for my confused Western brain in a Chinese body. The suttas point emphatically at Right View as the first step in the Noble Eightfold Path. There is no “flowy” hand-waving. Instead, there is a clear instruction to dispense with Identiy View. And there is even instruction on the subtle difficulty of relinquishing Identity View.
MN64:3.3: For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them?
The Great Doubt of Zen can be understood as a doubting of the value of Identity View. The practicing of the Great Doubt is the diligent practicing of dispensing with Identity View. That practice requires conditioned awareness and results in progressively “cleaner” awareness.
SN35.95:10.1: “In that case, when it comes to things that are to be seen, heard, thought, and known: in the seen will be merely the seen; in the heard will be merely the heard; in the thought will be merely the thought; in the known will be merely the known.
The realization of the unconditioned can be understood as the realization that our windshields are clean (i.e., free of greed, hate and delusion) and that by simply looking through the windshield one simply sees what is and acts appropriately with consciousness just as needed. It is the realization that actions here are not conditioned by greed, hate and delusion. The windshield is clean. That’s quite the tall order yet also a wonderful goal!
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Aggregates are in a dependent relationship with past moments, and so on. Moving from one link to the previous one, the information that was there and caused a new moment, reveals itself.
Moreover, in the same way, considering conditionality, one can look into the future, predict the development of aggregates due to causal relationships. This confirms the predictive potential of studying causal chains.
And finally, in a book written by an experienced meditation practitioner, I read that karma is the force that allows us to know things that happened many kalpas ago. It is karma that retains some information for a long time. This power is clearly not of the nature of consciousness. Consciousness has the function of cognition, therefore it is fleeting, since every moment you have to re-aware the object. Even after the experience of nibbana, yogis consider the Javanas of the supramundane minds and distinguish between cause and effect, as well as the tremendous speed of arising and fading away.
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Thank you. Am aware of these points – my initial question that started this thread sought to clarify the differences between teachings by some well-regarded teachers in the Thai Forest tradition who say that that there is an unconditional consciousness or deathless citta, and other teachers of the EBTs who deny this. I believe the latter are correct, according to the EBTs.
As we know from Zen teachings, there is a teaching of unconditional Awareness/Knowing, often called Buddha Mind. And from this assumption, it likely contributed to the view that Samsara = Nibbana. Won’t go into the reasons here, but from my delving into the EBTs and practicing the Dhamma as described in them, these two assumptions in Zen/Mahayana appear to be incorrect , can be a corruption of Right View, and can lead to unskillful behaviors. Not denying the profundity of Zen – but significant mistakes in understanding what the Buddha taught can lead to dead-ends in practice and the continuation of dukkha.
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Please tell us what are the features of Zen practice and how this practice differs from Theravada practices
Many doesn’t understand this part. Never seen it also. Dying consciously is Nirvana. Meaning accepting death unconditionaly. Buddha knew he was going to die. Chose to just accept the death. By totally letting go like this monks did in video. They are kinda accepting life fully. Living full Dying Fully. What happens after that was not fully declared by Buddha.
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Did the monk in the video commit suicide? what happened?
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Well it’s hard to know. It seems he knew that his death was coming. But monks that reached nirvana can just decide to die also. Around 4:00 min after a couple seconds you see hand just drop. Like he left the body
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To the Western mind with its TL;DR mentality, Zen is attractive because of teachings such as this one by Rinzai:
A monk asked: “What is the essence of Buddhism?”
The master gave a Katsu
The monk bowed.
The master said: “This one can hold his own in debate.”
In contrast, the Early Buddhist Texts would say something like:
MN121:11.2: Their mind becomes eager, confident, settled, and decided in that signless immersion of the heart.
MN121:11.3: They understand:
MN121:11.4: ‘Even this signless immersion of the heart is produced by choices and intentions.’
MN121:11.5: They understand: ‘But whatever is produced by choices and intentions is impermanent and liable to cessation.’
MN121:11.6: Knowing and seeing like this, their mind is freed from the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance.
MN121:11.7: When they’re freed, they know they’re freed.
MN121:11.8: They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
MN121:12.1: They understand:
MN121:12.2: ‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance.
MN121:12.3: There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’
MN121:12.4: They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance.
MN121:12.5: There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’
MN121:12.6: And so they regard it as empty of what is not there, but as to what remains they understand that it is present.
MN121:12.7: That’s how emptiness is born in them—genuine, undistorted, and pure.
MN121:13.1: Whatever ascetics and brahmins enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness—whether in the past, future, or present—all of them enter and remain in this same pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness.
MN121:13.4: So, Ānanda, you should train like this: ‘We will enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness.’
The EBTs are HUGE, and that is a difficulty. The appeal of Zen is its presented simplicity that relies on insights from meditation to fill in the gaps.
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Search about Mahasamadhi
This video you should understand what happens to monks and yogi consciously dying
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This can be a huge topic. But, in short Zen emphasizes:
- One Mind/ Unconditional Consciousness/Buddha Mind. This is not in EBTs
- Emphasizes realization on non-duality in inter-relatedness of all things as a deep insight, sometimes even expressed as Nirvana. Not in EBTs.
- Emptiness is taught as a formless Absolute; sometimes referred to as the Ground of Being. Not in the EBTs, where emptiness is an “emptiness of…”
- The fusion of this Absolute with the Relative, called the Two Truths, is taken as the highest Realization. Not in the EBTs.
-There’s more, but these are some significant differences.
Again, this is not to denigrate Zen. Just highlighting the differences.
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Again, there’s a lot that can be said in response to your question.
In summary, there are two schools of Zen: Soto and Rinzai. The former generally stress what’s called Shikantaza, or just sitting, meditation with an open awareness that doesn’t pick and choose. One begins to naturally see into anicca and the tendency to cling, helping ther mind to let go. The latter also does this but adds koans to the training.
Both schools stress the need for constant mindfulness, compassion, and ethical behavior.
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I think the point is that all constructions/farbications are ceased. They cease due to the complete penetration of things as they are, and the destruction of Ignorance. As such, when one looks back at past constructions - they too are penetrated and abandoned, and thus cease to be dukkha, and none are created in the present. So no dukkha due to Mind processes.
The dukkha that remains is simply having to exist with senses intact - experiencing conditions (both pleasant and painful) but without any delusion to feed fabrications (in the seen, only the seen etc) - until also the body dies/ceases to be.
That is why the cycle of DO is broken and the bliss and relief experienced here and now… simply the final release from ‘sensory experience’ is at death.
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This is not Buddhism.
Have you had a look at this thread? It also addresses this emphasis by some Thai Forest Tradition teachers
Just FYI, it is always worth using the search function in the top menu to have a look. Most topics have been discussed before and there is a treasure trove of resources available 
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Agreed. The Arahant experiences just bodily suffering rather than both bodily and mental suffering (two darts) until the body is no more.
For me, the practice increases what is categorised as suffering. Things that were once thought of as happiness are now thought of as suffering (even beautiful mind states become to be seen as suffering), so in that sense suffering increases. But at the same time the effect on the mind (or maybe affect) is decreased because it becomes clearer that there’s no chance of finding any happiness there and the mind gives up the pursuit. Which in a different sense is a great happiness. It’s quite a paradox. 
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