Consciousness and Nibbana

Q & A
83

Well Mahasamadhi is controlling when you die. That’s the kinda control we see Buddha did. He suppressed his time of death. When he was aware of death coming went in jhanas which is the higher samadhis and left the body. So he went on bed in stories with monks around him and he knew he was going to die.

Mahāsamādhi (the great and final samādhi) is the act of consciously and intentionally leaving one’s body. A realized yogi (male) or yogini (female) who has attained the state of nirvikalpa samādhi, will, at an appropriate time, consciously exit from their body. […] This is not the same as the physical death that occurs for an unenlightened person.

When this was said, the Blessed One
spoke to Mara, the Evil One, saying: "Do not trouble yourself, Evil One. Before long the Parinibbana of the Tathagata will come about. Three months hence the Tathagata will utterly pass away."

And at the Capala shrine the Blessed One thus mindfully and clearly comprehending renounced his will to live on. And upon the Lord’s renouncing his will to live on, there came a tremendous earthquake, dreadful and astonishing, and thunder rolled across the heavens

A wise person educate before responding

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84

Mahasamadhi is a practice in some Hindu / Advaita Vedanta practices. It is not aiming for Nibbana as the Buddha described, which is extinguishment/cessation. Rather it is about rebirth into the higher realms (which they roughly believe is the ultimate ‘consciousness’ as they don’t subscribe to ‘cessation’)… It’s really not compatible with what the Buddha taught. The Buddha may have run through the Jhanas on his death bed, but it wasn’t in order to get reborn into a state of higher consciousness.

I don’t believe it is useful to be quoting from two separate religious systems, that are talking about different things, in order to support your views. After all our focus is on the EBT’s here.

Just as the Buddha chastised Sariputta for guiding someone to only the higher realms instead of to full Liberation, it is not the Path to Nibbana. (apologies, I can’t remember the sutta reference)

Indeed! Very good advice… :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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85

What are you talking friend. The aim is ending rebirth. They might use as if different goal but the truth is One

Buddha

Indeed the truth is one, there’s not another,
about this the One who Knows
does not dispute with another

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86

It depends which framework or ‘lens’ you are looking through. From the Buddhist framework, Mahasamadhi has not ended rebirth. It is rebirth into a higher realm (it is actually based on desire for that type of existence), which is still part of Samsara. The work is not complete. Of course they see it differently. That’s why it is so important to be clear about what the EBT’s say and not to bring in other ideas that confuse things… There are so many influences that have crept in and that obscure what the Buddha taught. This idea of an enduring ‘consciousness’ is a very difficult thing (perhaps THE most difficult) to see through, and the natural tendency is to try to find ways to make this compatible with what the Buddha taught.

With best wishes for your journey :slight_smile: :pray:

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87

Well no matter what they say. I don’t believe that influence what they experience. It doesn’t influence. Since being so advanced they are obviously detached. My point was you can see that what Buddha did was done same way. Mindfully dying. That’s all what I’m saying. Since we don’t have a term. I guess Parinirvana

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88

It is not about right or wrong. But we need to be careful of using words that can trap us into bad path. Seen it many times. Hence we need to keep investigating the Sutta to build up the a correct and similar understanding as Buddha and all noble ones.

This is also in original Buddha teaching. But it is a high level practice. One needs to understand/hear the true teaching before one can start letting go.

Hearing and associate with noble is important in Buddha teaching. This is what it meant to get right view.

Same as original Buddha teaching, but again this is high level. Not everyone is at this level. Monastic person maybe easier to do this.

If you are lay people, you needs to keep your precepts 24 hours, not just during your praying. If you keep precept 24 hours, your mind will be automatically happy and calm. Then it is easier to calm and purify it further.

A lot of zen buddhism looks similar to Buddha original meditation. however I think the theory got lost over time, hence nowadays people only sit and get confused. :sweat_smile: Some might have good result, some might just get even more depressed/ more suffering.

Same thing with all current meditation methods. It is become one size fit all, however this is not how Buddha taught.

Buddha start with building up the understanding (right view first), and slowly progress to higher and higher level of mind.

On high level, one can be mindful (sati) and in samadhi (jhana) for 24 hours a day especially for an arahant and non returner. They practice and put effort of letting go all the “bad stuffs” and keep “good stuffs”.

If you understand the original teaching. It is simple actually. :grinning: As zen practice teach, let go bad stuffs & keep good stuffs in your minds. Maintain precepts for 24 hours.

Yes. But to break DO, it is a step by step process. One can’t break the whole DO right away. It needs to be done 24 hours a day on each elements. If you do it correctly, your mind will become happier and happier (blissful/joy) here and now.

:+1:

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89

this is not only a Thai forest teaching, some Burmese tradition embrace this too like ven mahasi lineage for example

the idea that mind is luminous is founded in the sutta and as one progress in jhana or insight their mind become more luminous the ultimate luminousity is nibbana

90

but karma is impermanent so how could it contains permanent information or permanent knowledge like that

and what’s karma in 5 aggregates and dependent origination ?

91

What a thoughtful and elegant post! Sadhu, sadhu sadhu!

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92

I do not know. We don’t understand how the world works. Perhaps there is a universal bank of information, for example, it can be stored in the arupa-spheres, in the sphere of infinite consciousness. but our individual consciousness is unequivocally impermanent. The better something is stored, the more lifeless it is. For example, information about the shape of a stone is stored for millions of years, especially since it is lifeless. The more life there is in the being, the higher the speed of processes, impermanence, and so on. The most permanent is nirodha, the cessation of all processes. From that nibbana is eternal, that it is a cessation without re-emergence. Therefore, to compare the bank of information storage, traces of the past and consciousness, I think, is not correct. They have different functions. Traces, it seems to me, are stored in the unconscious, in the field of samskara. Samskara by definition is formation. And close to the meaning of the word - information.

For countless lives.
Buddha remembered so many lifetimes and he didn’t get to the beginning where this process started. And this process most likely once began, because something that has no beginning, did not arise once - cannot even exist. The Suttas bypass this point, as they believe that the Buddha was omnipotent as God. But he never claimed this. The powers of a Buddha have some natural limit, as does the ability to remember. For example, not all yogis can remember many hundreds of lives, others get only 3 or 7. why? because the further you go, the less clear the information will be. Erasure happens one way or another. The deeper a yogi penetrates into the subconscious, the less there is from consciousness, and more from static lifeless formations that are like hard diamonds.

By the way, information can be overwritten from device to device for a long time. Information is not equal to the medium on which it is recorded. But with the cessation of the carrier, the information also ceases. However, all samskaras must be lived out and erased before awakening.

My theories about individual memory do not explain, however, how the Buddha saw the past lives of other Buddhas. This information is definitely stored somewhere, but not in the individual consciousness. And consciousness, as we have already determined, this bank of information cannot be called. An active process of life and knowledge is one thing. The other is a frozen, cold, frozen preservation of the imprints of past formations, relationships, and so on.

Perhaps the consciousness of the Buddha penetrates the level of the space-time continuum and sees the chain of events as the fourth dimension.

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93

yes I don’t understand this too, where did the Buddha get this data, it seems like all human store their memories in this centralized/shared database if this data is stored in karma then no other human could know other human’s data

94

Going back to the Theravada Thai Forest tradition: i have seen that they do not speak about the unborn as a kind of vinnana but as the Citta. That is not the same. Maha Boowa teaches that at arhattamagga the central focus point disappears from mind and then the unborn Citta reveals itself. He refers to this Citta as the unborn knowing nature of mind. In the Glossary of the book ‘arahattamagga-arahattaphala’ it is said:

citta: The citta is the mind’s essential knowing nature, the fundamental quality of knowing that underlies all sentient existence. When associated with a physical body, it is referred to as “mind” or “heart”. Being corrupted by the defiling influence of fundamental ignorance (avijjã), its currents “flow out” to manifest as feelings (vedanã), memory (saññã), thoughts (sankhãra), and consciousness (viññãna), thus embroiling the citta in a web of self-deception. It is deceived about its own true nature. The true nature of the citta is that it simply “knows”. There is no subject, no object, no duality; it simply knows. The citta does not arise or pass away; it is never born and never dies"[end}

So, translated in my own words. in the Citta, the fundamtal knowing nature of mind there is no asmi mana. There is not a perspective of a Me or subject that knows.
It is avijja that let ons belief that knowing nature is a Me or I.

Avijja (which they translate as fundamental ignorance) creates according to the Thai… "the false duality of the “knower” and the “known”.

I think this duality is more or less a characteristic of the knowing of vinnana which has become defiled with a sense of identity, a Me of mine perspective.

I have seen Maha Boowa explaining this this way: one can experience an emptiness, an empty mind, like someone who enters an empty room. Whereever he looks it is empty. But in fact it is not really empty because the observer is still in the room.
When avijja desintegrates the duality of an observer who observes an emptiness dissolves, ends.
And at that moment the Citta shows it’s non-dual knowing nature. At that time it is not vinnana who meets the knowing nature, but the knowing nature meets itself. Something like this.

By the way, i do not want to defend or critizise de Thai tradition. Maybe this info can be helpfull in the discussion.

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95

yes I think the same, the Buddha never discussed this often, people mistaken that the object is the problem even though the actual problem is craving, the object or even the subject is not important but the craving

I get another insight from you, as long as craving exists there would be subject and object when craving ceases non duality shows itself both subject and object would cease

furthermore this non duality principle is unconditioned but ignorance too is beginingless so it hides this non duality since beginingless time, arahantship doesn’t mean non duality arises, since nibbana never arises, non duality is always there but ignorance hides it from us since beginingless time

this ignorance is a cloud which hides the sun, the sun never arises, it’s wrong to say the sun arises, the sun is always there it’s just something else always hides it, sometimes the cloud in other time the earth hides it, the sun is the non dual nibbana principle while the cloud and earth are ignorance

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96

I am not clear what exactly you are referring to when you say the Mahasi lineage embraces this too. What are they embracing? Mahasi Sayadaw, in his Manual of Insight, writes the following about luminosity:

The statement that nibbāna is “all-luminous” in this passage means that it is completely cleansed of all defilements. Similar metaphors are used in such expressions as “the light of wisdom” (paññā-āloka), “the luster of wis-dom” (paññā-obhāsa), and “the torch of wisdom” (paññāpajjota). It is in this same sense that the Buddha said, “Bhikkhus, the mind is luminous.” The sense here is that nibbāna is always luminous. The mind and wisdom, which possess an innate luminosity, can be soiled by defiling phenomena. Nibbāna, however, which is the cessation of defilements or conditioned phenomena, can never be connected with defiling phenomena. Therefore there is no way that any of these phenomena can soil or defile nibbāna, just as the sky can never be painted. As a result it is said that “nibbāna is all-luminous.” To be straightforward, the meaning of the commentary and subcommentary is only that nibbāna is absolutely not connected to the defilements, or is completely cleansed of them.

So one should not misinterpret this statement to mean that nibbāna is literally shining like the sun, moon, or stars, and that one sees this luminosity by means of path knowledge and fruition knowledge. This kind of interpretation would negate previous statement that nibbāna is signless, would be inconsistent with its unique “signless” manifestation (animitta-paccupaṭṭhāna), and would contradict Venerable Nāgasena’s answer to King Milinda’s question about the nature of nibbāna. In fact this kind of literal interpretation would be in opposition to all the Pāḷi texts and commentaries that say that there is no materiality in nibbāna. In any event the cessation of potential defilements and aggregates is not something that is luminous and bright. If it were, the Pāḷi texts and commentaries could easily have said that “nibbāna is luminous and bright.” Otherwise they would not explain it with difficult names such as “destruction of lust” (rāgakkhayo), “the peaceful ending of all conditioned phenomena” (sab-basaṅkhārasamatho), “nonarising” (anuppādo), and so on, which are taken to be opposites of conditioned phenomena. One should reflect deeply about this!

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97

Here it is necessary to decide. Whether we are dealing with the original teachings of some forest hermits or with the teachings of the suttas. if these monks did not rely on the suttas, they would not use the terms familiar to the suttas - citta, five aggregates, and so on. Therefore, it will not be a mistake to try to criticize their understanding from the standpoint of the suttas. In the suttas, the citta is rarely mentioned, but is listed as impermanent and as a synonym for consciousness and mind (mano). But maybe a lower order citta is mentioned there, and the real radiant mind is hidden? I think the clue is hidden in two suttas. The citta is most often mentioned as the subject of mindfulness and mindfulness in the 3rd base of mindfulness. The Mahasatipatthana mentions different types of citta to be contemplated. in particular, it describes a citta above which there is no state, the citta of the awakened one. Thus the 3rd satipatthana includes all types of citta. This is important to remember. Referen adds to each satipatthana the expression - to abide contemplating the factors of origin and the factors of cessation. That is, the contemplation of the dependent arising and ceasing of the body, senses, mind, and phenomena. Another important sutta explains the immediate conditions for the emergence of the four foundations of mindfulness. For Citta, it is a name and a form.

Thus, the miracle did not happen. If the all kind of citta depends on the name-form, then with the cessation of the name-form it will cease. this is dukkha nirodha, according to other suttas.

Why do such teachings appear? “an empty room, but there is a knower, etc.” This is what happens when an ascetic considers reality at the level of conventional truth, meditates on concepts. There is no knower, there is no room, there is nothing. These are all concepts. It is important to consider the true flow of dhammas. Of what does the knower consist? what is the cause of each citta and cetasika. it is important to see their dependence on karma, formations, ignorance, craving and grasping. It is necessary to see all internal and external connections. Therefore, from some point, every meditation becomes a pointless occupation if the meditator does not move from the level of concepts to the level of research into ultimate realities.

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98

note that I think nibbana is not self but it’s definitely the only thing which is real while others are as real as passing dreams, I think our nature is nibbana but we don’t realize it hence Buddha called nibbana as realization or as the cessation of ignorance or the dawn of knowledge

I don’t think our nature is ignorance because if it’s then there’s no way we could change it

Buddha always said that the mind is luminous but the defilements defiled it, this means that nibbana is the undefiled mind or consciousness

99

@Alaray
the cup is pure in nature and is polluted by the incoming impurities of the tea, but the cup is impermanent. Substitute anything for the cup.

100

I do not think it can be denied that there is the impression on the heart of a knower. Someone inside who experiences. Who feels the pain, who suffers, who feels pleasant feeling etc. There is much more going on than only the seen in the seen, only the cognised in the cognised. There is also an additional sense that a Me, or I, or knower does the sensing.

The knower can be called a concept but that is, i find, a kind of self-deception because for us, in the way we experience and live our lives, it does not show to be only some kind of concept which one can easily ignore or discard.

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101

an undefiled mind is fully luminous and is unconditioned

the ending of greed,hate and delusion is undefiled mind

sn43.2
And what is the unconditioned? The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called the unconditioned

102

The concept is the names for the complex of the really existing dhammas of mind and matter.
Which we perceive erroneously due to lack of concentration and wisdom. The “knower” can be analyzed to the level of cittas and cetasiks. And until this is done, there will be a temptation to accept it as permanent, eternal, reliable and happiness, as the Core of one’s own experience and existence, that is, I

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