manual of insight page 464
Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous,
The statement that nibbāna is “all-luminous” in this passage means that
it is completely cleansed of all defilements.
@Alaray
You take words out of context and twist them to fit your delusions. Mahasi Sayadaw said so many times that nibbana is not some kind of consciousness and there is no special kind of consciousness in it. Read his books. And in this passage he conveys the opinion of the Burmese commentary, in which the word vinnana is not used in the sense of consciousness.
<<Absence of Mind and Matter in Nibbāna
In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.
With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds.>>
“On the Nature of Nibbana”
Mahasi Sayadaw
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Interesting read. Unfortunately, we can’t talk to person who has been gone.
Couple interesting observations:
- Nama Rupa is not mind and matter. One who studied sutta will know this on SN 12.2.
- One shouldn’t mix mundane and supermundane such as kamma and nibbana. One who practice N8FP has abandoned kamma.
- Nibanna is not no mind and matter. How can one relate AN 11.7 to the writing, where an arahant perceives but nothing is register (perceives/senses object without feeling)?
- Instead of using sutta, there is so many commentaries that are being added.
- Regarding this statement, this is not for lay people practice. Lay people practice is right view by hearing dhamma and morality. If they practice up to this level, this means the lay people is closed to non returner or arahant level. It is just impossible without right view and good morality in daily life to purify the mind.
Without practising insight-meditation, it will not be possible for a layman to stop short at hearing when he hears, at smelling when he smells, at tasting when he tastes and at touching when he touches. The most difficult to achieve is to stop at thinking as he thinks.
- Nibbana is not without mind and matter. Look at MN 1 and other sutta explanation. Even Buddha parinibbana is at 4th jhana, not at cessation of feeling and perception.
There so many more inconsistencies, too bad can’t ask clarification from person who has been gone.
I recommend study sutta, don’t mixing up many new concepts or commentaries.
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Mahasi Sayadaw will explain that this is how this consciousness can experience. With the help of the supramundane consciousnesses of the path and the fruit. The object of which is termination. And the sutta you quoted says exactly that. About focusing on the dhamma of cessation and non-perception of the whole world. Nothing is said there about the cessation of consciousness, the object and the process of cognition. It talks about focusing on nibbana-dhamma.
You can replace this with five aggregates for convenience. That’s what we’re talking about here.
Mahasi Sayadaw was a realized teacher. He himself experienced what Nibbana Dhamma is. His descriptions are full of hidden, but very detailed explanations of the experience, of him and his students. so whatever he uses - suttas or commentaries - he will choose exactly what will express the real experience of himself as an enlightened one. And this interpretation is the most valuable.
However, he most often refers to the suttas
The right view is the 4 noble truths. The truth about suffering and the cessation of suffering. If you become attached to any of the states of mind in meditation as unconditioned nibbana, you will not be able to practice considering the three characteristics in relation to that state. In this way, you cannot achieve non-clinging to this state. And thus you will not be able to know the dhamma in which all these states, which are by nature anicca and dukkha, cease. Nibbana will not be available to you. And since this is a wrong view, you will accumulate negative kamma that will prevent you from achieving the fruit of stream entry. It is very important.
MN1 says nothing about nibbana without cessation of mind and matter. But in many Sanyuta nikaya suttas, this is directly stated. MN 1 says that nibbana is the cessation of clinging. What happens at the moment of extinction does not depend on the jhanas. Many arahants did not enter jhana to achieve parinibbana. nibbana is not conditioned by jhana. The Buddha came out of the fourth, because that is where the most powerful, sharp awareness is. Besides, in the state of nirodha-samapati, one cannot die, it is not possible. And note, Anurudha, who at that moment contemplated the mind of the Tathagata, confirmed that the mind had gone out like a blown out lamp. What else is needed?
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<<Cessation As Expounded in the Kevaṭṭa Sutta
In the Law of Dependent Origination it has been shown that the cessation of ignorance brings about the cessation of formations, and that the cessation of formations brings about the cessation of consciousness, which leads to rebirth-linking and new becoming.
Hence, cessation is explained in the Commentaries as synonymous with nibbāna. Here, it suffices to say that it is the cessation of, and liberation from, craving and lust. I shall now refer to the Kevaṭṭa Sutta for more explanation
“Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ.
Ettha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati.
“Ettha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ.
Ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati.”
“One cannot see consciousness. It has no limits. It shines with purity. It has no primary elements like water, earth, fire, and air. It is neither long nor short; it is neither big nor small; it is neither pleasing nor displeasing to the eye. In nibbāna all matter that inclines toward the mind ceases totally. Since consciousness is rendered extinct, mind and matter cease altogether”
Indeed nibbāna cannot be seen with the naked eye; it can be seen only with the eye of wisdom (path-knowledge). It is beyond comparison. It has neither beginning nor end, and neither arising nor dissolution. One cannot say that nibbāna arises here and vanishes there. Where on earth can anyone discover the beginning or end of a phenomenon when formations are totally extinguished?
Nibbāna is of pristine purity. Pollution of mind and maetter is possible as defilements like greed, anger, and ignorance defile consciousness. In fact, they can even pollute wholesome actions.
However, in nibbāna no such defilements can arise. Hence we say that its purity is bright and clear. This figurative language leads to the description of nibbāna as light. However, light is the result of the contact of a sense-base with a sense-object and indicates materiality.
In nibbāna matter is absent; and so to take it as light in a literal sense goes against the teachings of the Buddha.
The word “sabbatopabhaṃ” in the above passage from the Kevaṭṭa Sutta, has another connotation that emphasises that nibbāna is the destination reachable through the practice of meditation. The Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma mention forty methods of practice, but in the Canonical texts only thirty-eight are shown excluding light device (āloka kasiṇa) and space device (ākāsa kasiṇa).
Literally “kasiṇa” means whole and complete. It is an image conceptualised by the meditator as light, which extends everywhere completely without limit. Or, in other words, it is a contemplation device on which a concept is imagined. Hence, āloka kasiṇa is usually rendered as “light device,” and ākāsa kasiṇa as “space device.” The practice of any one of these objects of meditation can lead the meditator to the realisation of nibbāna. If one wants to go to sea, one can get to it from any point on the coast. If you want to bathe in a lake, you can get to its waters from any point of its perimeter.
Similarly, if you want to reach nibbāna you can take any of the thirty-eight prescribed meditation objects. Of course, you cannot get to your desired destination only through the tranquility method of training in concentration. You must also take up insight meditation after accomplishment in tranquility. Insight meditation alone can lead you to absorption from which stage you can aspire to nibbāna through the realisation of the Path and its Fruition.
Once a young monk entered a forest with a novice in search of vines for a tooth-brush. The novice came across a dead body. At once he contemplated the corpse and attained the first jhāna. He meditated on the rise and fall of the aggregates till he reached the second and third stages of the Path. As he was trying for the fourth stage leading to Arahantship, he was hailed from afar by his senior. He rose from jhāna and pointed out the corpse to the monk, who, at once practised meditation till he attained to Non-returning. It appears that both the monk and the novice were quite familiar with the methods of insight meditation, and so they became Non-returners. This shows that any of the thirty-eight methods of meditation can lead one to the Path and nibbāna.>>…
…<<The Buddha likened the monk to a bird flying out from a ship at sea in search of land. Not being able to reach land, it comes back to the ship. “You should not have posed the question in the way that you did,” said the Buddha, “Your question suggests that there is a def i nite place outside the body where the cessation of the elements occurs. In fact, there is no such place. You should have asked where the four elements lose their footing; that is to say where they lose their existence. Likewise you should have asked where do long and short, great and small, and good and bad, lose their footing. You should also have asked where do mind and matter get totally annihilated leaving no residue. If you ask like this, you will have the answer.”
Then he uttered the verse that begins “Viññānaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ,” which has been explained extensively before.
In nibbāna, the four elements together with mind and matter have no footing. That is to say, they do not exist.
So far I have expounded the atributes of nibbāna beginning with its state of emancipation from the world of craving to that of cessation of all formations about which, I believe, all that needed to be said has been said.>>
“On the Nature of Nibbana”
Mahasi Sayadaw
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Ok. But, I know my way 
. Been happy for long time. My teacher is Buddha Gotama. He is the only teacher for me. The rest can only be a dhamma friend. Even a dhamma friend needs to speak same as what Sutta write. Otherwise, i know they are not there yet. 
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@Joe.C
I have explained why clinging to some form of mind does not lead to fruition. That’s all. For the dhamma of nibbana can only be realized if one has discarded everything as impermanent and suffering. If something remains - as permanent, as happy or as the core of one’s own existence, that is, selfhood - then such a rejection does not occur and nibbana is not comprehended.
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Let me ask you. One who know jhana and know the drawbacks of the states. Will they cling to the states?
There are so many path & fruit knowledge. Why go for the hardest one? Should go for easy one first, stream entry. Sotapanna then proceed further with effort.
Anyway, enough said. I’ll let you hold on to this. I’ll only hold on to the 4 noble truths and sutta (buddha and other nobles discourses).
Because I know how they realized Nibbana. By let go of everything.
Sorry, this is your assumption. Arahant basic mind needs to be at 1st jhana. Otherwise, there will be asava (defilements).
Yes, it is true. I am agree
It is important not to get caught up in jhana at the level of the view. One who knows, or at least has the conviction and belief that jhana is impermanent and suffering, does not cling to the level of the view and can become sotapana. Similarly, with the lower fruits. You don’t need to achieve nibbana right now. However, you need to understand in general what it is exactly not and what is the nature of all mind and all matter.
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Sorry this is in accurate. Sotapanna only need jhana (1st jhana at least) when they hear the 4 noble truth from other noble devotees. Their mind needs to be focus on the teaching.
Please study how the right view condition to arise on MN 43 and correlate with SN 55. There is no jhana understanding yet for sotapanna.
This is a gross mistake. There can be no asavs in the mind of an arahant, even if he falls asleep. Many arahants have experienced terrible physical torments that prevent them from entering the jhanas, and yet no asavas have arisen in their minds. the necessary condition for the asavs is ignorance. The nibbana of an arahanta is unconditioned. This means that the cessation of his asav does not require any third-party constructed maintenance. For example, jhana (as you mistakenly assumed). I have no idea where you got this from. Nowhere in the suttas have I seen such gross errors.
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The jhanas belong to the five aggregates. Sotapana has to understand the five aggregates. He may not reach the jhanas, but still have strong faith and conviction in the correctness of the teachings of the Buddha. So far I don’t see that you have understood the suttas.
I’ll let you find out when you are old. only at 4th jhana, the feeling of sukha and dukkha is not present. To maintain 4th jhana in daily life is not easy with lot of activities. Especially for Buddha and other arahants which preach and converse dhamma/teaching in daily life. When the body gets old, it is even more difficult.
Arahant will be at least on 1st jhana in daily life (but easily move around between Jhanas). But can’t explain further, you need to find out why.
There is no really hard limit of boundary between one jhana to another. One who master it, can move freely between any jhana up to cessation of feeling and perception. Just by let go.
Reading MN117 and AN 9.36, maybe you will understand or not.
“Mendicants, I say that the first jhana is a basis for ending the defilements. The second jhana is also a basis for ending the defilements. The third jhana is also a basis for ending the defilements. The fourth jhana is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of infinite space is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of infinite consciousness is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of nothingness is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is also a basis for ending the defilements. The cessation of perception and feeling is also a basis for ending the defilements.
The first jhana is a basis for ending the defilements.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it?
Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first jhana. They aware the experiences there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
They turn their mind away from those experiences, and apply it to the deathless: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’
Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements.
If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that experiences. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.
Also on SN 28.1 and others:
Reverend Sāriputta, your faculties are so very clear, and your complexion is pure and bright. What meditation were you practicing today?”
“Reverend, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first jhana, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. But it didn’t occur to me: ‘I am entering the first jhana’ or ‘I have entered the first jhana’ or ‘I am emerging from the first jhana’.”
“That must be because Venerable Sāriputta has long ago totally eradicated ego, possessiveness, and the underlying tendency to conceit. That’s why it didn’t occur to you: ‘I am entering the first jhana’ or ‘I have entered the first jhana’ or ‘I am emerging from the first jhana’.”
Enough said, just trying to help. But looks like your mind is not very open.
This is the condition for ending the pollution of the mind. Nibbana does not require conditions, it is unconditioned.
the noble 8 folded path to realize nibbana is conditioned not unconditioned
I have updated the logical sequences
1.the ending of impurities of tea in the cup = the unconditioned
2.the ending of the impurities of tea in the cup = cup + purity
3.thus the unconditioned = cup + purity
now which one among these 3 logical statements that you still disagree with ?
talking about ultimate reality is not trolling, it’s a difficult concept so I think it’s much better to write the text as it’s
-
the ending of greed,hate and delusion of mind = unconditioned
-
the ending of greed,hate and delusion of the mind = mind + non-greed, non-hate and non-delusion
-
mind + non-greed, non-hate and non-delusion = the unconditioned
which statement do you still disagree here ?
I am a truth seeker I am open minded I plan a mahasi retreat next month so I want to eradicate this doubt of mine
Why did I give the example of a cup? to give a good example of how cleansing a cup does not make it eternal (or unconditioned). Wash the cup and throw it against the wall. it will break. That’s why the logical error is still present. “the ending of the impurities of tea in the cup = cup + purity”; We do not say that the process itself and the moment of cessation of pollution is unconditioned. It is conditioned by the sankharas of the path. But the purity that is exposed as a result of this is unconditioned and permanent. I’ll give you another example. There is fire, it is conditioned by wood and heat. There is water - these are the factors of the path. If we pour water on the fire - this is a conditioned action, with a conditioned result - extinguishing the fire. The coolness that is exposed when the fire goes out does not disappear anywhere. If the firewood is damp and disappears, this is the final nirvana - peace, coolness, non-burning. That’s why you made a mistake in the first paragraph. The process of ending pollution is conditioned. And purity, the only unconditioned dhamma among all that. If you wash the cup, does purity appear? no, it’s always there. Does purity disappear if you break a cup? no, it stays the same. The space of purity is immovable. Therefore, the process of cleansing the cup is conditioned. The cup is conditioned. Purity is unconditional. Especially the purity that happens when all the tea in the world disappears (asavas are eradicated forever) and the cup is ground to powder.
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I think I get it but I am still curious
non-greed, non-hate and non-delusion is the unconditioned, right ? but these are mind’s quality and attribute, they don’t exist without mind
could you point to me non greed without mind ?
also once your mind is without greed it’s impossible to reverse it hence it’s not wrong to call it as unconditioned
that’s how I understand it
non-greed is the quality of the cessation of silence and tranquility. Silence is just a quality. When greed has ceased, greed is no longer needed to define cessation. When the five aggregates, which are impermanent, unsatisfactory and impersonal, have ceased, there is a cessation that no longer requires aggregates for its definition. Nirvana is the unconditional cessation of suffering. Craving is suffering, aggregates are suffering. the quality of termination is the same there and there. It is the same quality. There is the quality of arising and there is the quality of non-arising. Lady Sayadaw gives such an example. There is a man who fell ill with boils. The cure of one fifth of the boils is of the same nature as the cure of the second part of the boils. It’s all the same quality of healing. You need to learn to abstract, to dissect, to analyze phenomena. For example, cessation is a universal quality that applies to both cup and tea, and thirst and mind. it does not belong to any of them, it is simply the state or quality of the cessation of something, calmness, absence and non-arising.
If space is what remains when form is removed, then nibbana is what remains when passion and the five aggregates, as well as every kind of mind, are removed. This is the space of cessation. You don’t have to imagine a space. I am not talking about that. Nirvana is not space, nor is it a mind like space. Nibbana is the cessation of all formations, the rejection of all acquisitions, peace, fading. This is exactly what the Buddha said, and nothing else. There is no need to think of anything additional to his words.
Yes, I can point out to you non-greed without the present mind. For example, an arahant whose aggregates have ceased has no greed, although there is no consciousness there either. And so, the cessation of greed is established forever, it is unconditional. Although we should not speculate about the state of an Arahant after death, since there are no spheres of contact that could describe this hypothetical state
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