Consciousness and Nibbāna

The topic I wish to address belongs, at least at first sight, to the class of questions on which the Buddha preferred to remain silent. As he warned in the famous simile of the wounded man addressed to Malunkyaputta, we might die before obtaining a satisfactory answer. Indeed, if I were simply to ask, “What becomes of the Tathāgata after death?”, the Buddha would undoubtedly have set the question aside. My concern, however, is somewhat different, and I believe it deserves our attention because it has generated considerable debate, both in the past and today. It concerns the nature of consciousness and the nature of nibbāna, the ultimate goal of all Buddhists. I shall begin by outlining, in broad terms, three major schools of thought.

The first maintains that there exists a pure, luminous, unconditioned consciousness, without surface, which ultimately coincides with nibbāna itself. Its advantage is that it provides an account of the experience of nibbāna both before and after death. Its drawback is that it postulates the existence of an unconditioned consciousness, something the Buddha consistently denied. In effect, it reintroduces a permanent consciousness bearing a striking resemblance to the Vedāntic Self (Sat-Cit-Ānanda), a view the Buddha explicitly rejected in his second discourse on non-self. I shall refer to this as the eternalist position.

The second school takes the opposite view. Since all consciousness is impermanent, it is necessarily conditioned. Consequently, there can be no unconditioned consciousness identical with nibbāna. Furthermore, because nibbāna is understood as the cessation of all processes and all phenomena, it is interpreted as sheer nothingness. The strength of this position is its fidelity to the canonical teaching concerning the impermanent nature of consciousness. Its weakness is that it leads to an extreme metaphysical position absent from the Buddha’s teaching, namely the notion of absolute nothingness. Moreover, it leaves unanswered the original question: who, if anyone, can experience nibbāna after the dissolution of the aggregates? I shall call this the annihilationist position.

The third school likewise rejects the possibility of an unconditioned consciousness but also refuses to identify nibbāna with nothingness. Instead, it regards nibbāna as the unconditioned element (dhātu), the ultimate reality. Yet acknowledging the reality of nibbāna does not imply that it either possesses consciousness or is itself consciousness. Thus, this position agrees with the previous one concerning the nature of consciousness as conditioned and impermanent, while differing radically concerning the nature of nibbāna. Its strength is that it remains faithful to the Buddha’s teaching while avoiding nihilism. Its weakness, however, is that it too fails to answer the question of how a fully awakened being can experience nibbāna after death. How can nibbāna be described as the supreme bliss if, once the goal has been attained, there is no one left to experience it? Can an unexperienced bliss still meaningfully be called bliss? I shall refer to this as the realist position, since it regards nibbāna as a genuine reality.

Let us begin with the question of the experience of nibbāna. The issue presents no difficulty with regard to nibbāna “with residue” (sa-upādisesa-nibbāna), that is, the realization of nibbāna during this very life. Consciousness does not have to be unconditioned in order to experience the unconditioned, just as the lotus does not have to be the sun in order to bloom beneath its rays. The Buddha and all arahants realize nibbāna during their lifetime and thereby experience supreme happiness.

The real difficulty arises only with nibbāna “without residue” (anupādisesa-nibbāna), that is, after the death of the fully awakened one. According to the realist position, nibbāna is certainly not nothingness, yet the awakened individual is definitively extinguished at death. This leads to an apparent paradox: the awakened one, who realized nibbāna during his life, no longer experiences it after death.

This difficulty may be approached in three different ways. The first is to question the very notion of personal identity. To what extent is an individual truly real if he is constantly dying and being reborn from one moment to the next? According to the Pāli Canon, no one literally comes into being or passes away; only physical and mental processes arise and cease. As the Visuddhimagga states, strictly speaking, no one realizes nibbāna. The realization of nibbāna is not the acquisition by a subject of a supreme spiritual object. Rather, it is the dissolution of the very subject that seeks it.

The second approach concerns the nature of time. The realization attained by the Buddha during his lifetime is complete, perfect, definitive, boundless, and absolute. His death neither subtracts from nor adds anything to that realization, because, at the level of ultimate reality, time itself does not exist.

Finally, we may consider the solution proposed by the Venerable Sāriputta. According to this interpretation, supreme bliss consists precisely in the absence of all feeling. The individual self is merely a limitation imposed upon the infinite, a point expressed by Spinoza in the celebrated dictum omnes determinatio est negatio. After the death of the fully awakened one, nothing remains but nibbāna itself. This final hypothesis reconciles the annihilationist understanding of consciousness as conditioned with the realist affirmation of the reality of nibbāna.

Yet what of our initial question, which undoubtedly lies at the root of all the others? To experience nibbāna, to realize it, consciousness is required. As we have seen, this presents no problem during the lifetime of the awakened one. But if consciousness, like the other aggregates, ceases altogether at death, how can the fully awakened being enjoy the supreme bliss of the unconditioned (paramaṃ sukhaṃ)?

The most straightforward answer would be that there is simply no one left to enjoy it. This would imply that nibbāna is radically transcendent. At this point we must return to the Buddha’s warning, which reminds us of the limits of human understanding. His teaching is, if not skeptical, at least profoundly apophatic. What a fully awakened being is, and what—if anything—can be said of its condition after death, lies infinitely beyond our cognitive capacities. We cannot truly conceive it, much less express it.

What we can affirm is this: so long as we are alive, the path leading to nibbāna remains open to us. The realization of nibbāna is already possible from the moment of stream-entry. In other words, genuine happiness is accessible here and now. Is that not, in itself, wonderful news?

Our concern with the afterlife probably reveals a subtle form of existential anxiety in the face of death, but it also betrays an incomplete understanding of the Buddha’s teaching on non-self. It reflects our thirst for continued existence and our compulsive attachment to ourselves. Does one who abides in supreme bliss concern himself with what comes afterward? Nibbāna is here and now, or it is nowhere.

In conclusion, I would like to quote the words of one of the great sages of ancient Greece, Epicurus. Within a Buddhist context, these words are meaningful only with regard to the fully awakened one, since all others remain subject to rebirth:
"Death, the most terrifying of evils, is nothing to us, since so long as we exist, death is not with us; but when death comes, then we do not exist. Therefore, death means nothing either to the living or to the dead, since it has no concern with the former, and the latter no longer exist. Yet the multitude at one moment flee death as the greatest of evils, and at another long for it as the end of the evils of life. The wise man neither rejects life nor fears the cessation of life. For life does not burden him, nor does he think that there is any evil in no longer living » (Letter to Menaces).
Alain Durel

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Hi,

Thanks for your post.

This is a subject which has been debated and discussed extensively on SC and you may wish to use the Search function (upper right hand corner) to read and consider the many threads that have been generated.

Here are a few:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/on-the-inherent-pessimism-of-parinibbana-as-mere-cessation/25431/12

And there are many more. :blush:

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Thank you! I have read most of these discussions. But none of them approaches the subject in the way I do. The article I am proposing is both a summary and a personal response to one of the most difficult questions there is. The three ‘schools of thought’ correspond to actual Buddhist schools or to the teachings of certain monks. I did not wish to name them. I am a disciple of Bhikkhu Bodhi, and this article is an extract from my correspondence with him. It needs to be read carefully.

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I find that the B. Bodhi article has a possibility of reifying pariNibbāna into a something.

It doesn’t matter that it’s not called unconditioned consciousness, but as long as total cessation is not acknowledged as pariNibbāna, then the delusion of self can easily and happily hide in whatever that pariNibbāna is.

I think absolute nothingness maybe a taboo because of the notion of people still having delusion of self thinking that the self is annihilated at pariNibbāna. When there’s no self at all, just mind and body, with their cessation, comes the cessation of all, forever. That’s parinibbāna. Indeed, without a soul, there’s no way for an arahant to enjoy parinibbāna. At most it can be said that not having any arising anymore is itself blissful.

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PSA: The forum software doesn’t put spaces between paragraphs. You have to do that by putting an extra carriage return. Doing that would make your essay much more readable.

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Done !

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Dear Bhante,
I understand what you mean, but it’s the problem of language (and logic). It would be better to speak only with negation : nibbāna is not nothing, which doesn’t imply it is a “thing”. Human mind is conditionned and limited by a certain type of logic related to an implicit ontology. We must open our understanding of being beyong the notion of some thing. In that sens I agree concerning the word “reality” which can easily be misunderstood. Here “reality” should be considered as an analogy. So nibbāna is neither a thing nor nothing.
With mettā,
Alain

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Where in the suttas does it say Nibbāna is not nothing?

I would say that Nibbāna being cessation means it’s the ultimate nothing.

Please give me a reference from the canon where the Buddha explains that nibbāna is “ultimate nothing”. You won’t find one. On the other hand, you will find suttas in which he explicitly distances himself from extreme metaphysical positions—eternalism and annihilationism—to opt for the Middle Way (for example, in the Acela Sutta). It is precisely the originality of the Buddha’s thought that lies in situating himself beyond being and non-being. Non-being is merely the flip side of being. Nibbāna lies beyond both being and non-being.

Someone replied to your post.

| NgXinZhao
June 22 |

  • | - |

Where in the suttas does it say Nibbāna is not nothing?

I would say that Nibbāna being cessation means it’s the ultimate nothing.

Sn35.23 defines the all as 6 sense base and their objects.

An4.173 has that the 6sense contacts ceased with no residue left behind.

It’s good to focus on the no residue left behind.

In parinibbāna, it is not possible to state something leftover or not because there’s no mind, thus no concept.

However as we are not in pariNibbāna, we have minds and concepts onto which we can map the closest we can to parinibbāna.

When the all ceased with nothing left over. That’s pariNibbāna. It’s a nothing that is so nothing that to use concepts to describe it as nothing is too much, an insult to parinibbāna.

Sn12.15 has the duality of non existence concept doesn’t occur when arising is seen.

In Parinibbāna, as mentioned, there’s no mind to have concept. But from our point of view from here, we can see that there’s no arising in pariNibbāna, and we can apply the concept of non existence to pariNibbāna then as we still have a mind. The dependency of destruction of the concept of non existence is arising is seen. When that dependency is gone, no arising is seen, the concept of non existence is not destroyed and can be applied to pariNibbāna.

There’s never a soul/self thus no real existence or non existence applied to the self. But there’s the 5 aggregates which is dependently arisen, and when dependent cessation is complete, there’s no 5 aggregates, that’s all. The end, 6 sense bases end without remainder. It’s valid to say pariNibbāna is the ultimate nothing as there’s nothing else, no 5 aggregates, no soul. No need to evoke a mysterious incomprehensible transcendental Nibbāna when the mystery of An4.173 can be explained by no mind means no concept, in parinibbāna.

From the perspective of people still not there, it’s valid to say pariNibbāna is basically the ultimate nothingness.

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Dear Bhante, We agree that in parinibbāna, the six sense spheres and the five aggregates have ceased to exist (this is what I say in my short article), but we cannot conclude from this that nibbāna is nothingness. You are making a logical error by inferring the absence of something from the impossibility of knowing it. The fact that something is incomprehensible does not imply that it does not exist. Furthermore, you do not understand the meaning of the word I am using: ‘transcendent’ has nothing mystical about it! I believe that Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi’s arguments drawn from the Canon are convincing. You say ‘I know’ where I say ‘one cannot know’. You are therefore adopting a dogmatic stance. Furthermore, you lack cordiality and politeness, which for me is a deal-breaker. I am therefore bringing this conversation with you to an end. With mettā, AD

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Dear Bhante. :slight_smile:

I don’t think it’s an insult at all! In fact, I can think of several logical contradictions when treating Cessation as a Literal Fact, namely the position that:

Cessationalist View: There is a unique ownerless stream that nonetheless belongs uniquely to Buddha and then uniquely ceases.

I’ve briefly touched on what I think is the most important crux of the Cessationalist argument here before:

I’ll try and recap my main arguments as simple as possible. :slight_smile:


It seems to me that Cessationalism wants to do two contradictory things at once:

  • To index a unique, discreet, stable continuum of khandas and karma. In everyday speech, we call this a self.
    • “I am the heir of my karma”, etc.
  • It also tries to refuse to own this stable sense of continuity, going through linguistic hoops to explain “Why a self in one sense is no self at all”
    • “This is not me, this is not mine”, etc.

So, it wants to both own and disown khandas. So, which one is it? :slight_smile:


Now, to even begin to posit “Nothingness” as a position, you need to declare “Nothingness in what sense?”

For example, my hand has no eye sight. The sight of my hand is nothingness.

Otherwise, nothingness is meaningless as an ontologic declaration. It doesn’t exist (heh!) in an abstract - it denotes the absence of something in a particular case.

You in fact evoke it here, with the “Absence of Mind”.

After Buddha’s deathly-parinibbana, if we can say “There’s no mind”, but here I am, I have a mind - it means that Buddha’s mind once existed as a real category beyond conventions, separate from my mind.

So, said mind whose absence we observe, must’ve belonged truly to some recipient self beyond conventions. Just because we refuse to call it a self doesn’t then make it not so, IMO. :slight_smile:

In order to meaningfully talk about “Buddha’s nothingness parinibbana”, we need a real, actual self beyond conventions such that Buddha must have been a real, discreet, identifiable subject vis-a-vis khandas.

Yet the SN 22.85 Yamakasutta in fact denies this.

If the indexed, discreet stream of khandas cease to exist after deathly-parinibbana, then for that cluster of khandas, it would be appropirate to declare “This is me, this is mine”,

Yet, we’re told that the khandas do not belong to us. In fact, imagining ourselves in the khandas is sakkayaditthi, a wrong view.

Simply saying “There’s still no self, just selfless khandas ceasing” is just hand-waving away the issues brought up, when the very khandas you claim to be empty of a self act like they do have a self in how they belong to someone and not to some other.

That move merely converts substance ontology into stream ontology - same thing with a different name. :slight_smile: So, I’ll refuse this oft-repeated remark, since If it talks like a self and behaves like a self, it must be a self. :smiley:


Ultimately, this is the tension I struggle with:

Either Cessationalism permits a discreet indexing of khandas and karma, in which case it becomes difficult to avoid reintroducing a self by another name, where saying “This is mine” is appropriate beyond conventions; or it refuses such indexing altogether, in which case it becomes difficult to understand in what sense one can meaningfully speak of a unique cessation at all.

This is why I remain unconvinced by treating Cessation as a verbatim fact.

Now, I’m well aware that there are a few suttas and some Thag verses that can amount to something to the effect of “Death after nibbana is a special kind of nothingness”.

Their presence, however, doesn’t easily resolve the logical tension for me. :slight_smile:

We should be vigilant with our scrutiny of Dharma, and be open to the possibility that certain expositions might’ve evolved with socio-historical necessities perhaps.

Because, I don’t think any of us actually fully understand the Dharma, to begin with. If we had, we’d be arahants far away from forums such as these, don’t you think? :slight_smile:

Likewise, I do not offer my post as a correction of any sort, but merely my personal observations on why I don’t think it makes sense to treat Cessation as a verbatim fact.

Hence, I am more sympathetic to dear @Alain (Desolé, Alain! J’ai peu à apporter à votre exposé. :slight_smile: ) in treating “Neither something, nor nothingness” as the gem of the Dharma, without this sentence sneaking in something, as we point to a particular case where epistemology becomes meaningless (As opposed to treating Nothingness as an ontological fact). :slight_smile:

:lotus:

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Maybe I have not fully understood your struggling with above mentioned paradox but from what I understand, you can drop the notion of ‘after death’ and replace it by ‘precisely at the final moment of the body’ and so you can move on by dropping any question pertaining to ‘after death’.

In other words, instead of struggling yourself about ‘can or can not, will or will not, an enlightened one experience supreme happiness/nibbana/parinibbana after death?’, you can be at peace with the following:

The enlightened ones experience nibbana while they are still alive. And precisely at the final moment of the body, not after death, they experience parinibbana. Then you just stop there, don’t go any further.

Any question regarding their experience is invalid because that is an imposing of ways of experience from unenlightened beings on enlightened beings.

Any question regarding their very existence or non existence is also invalid because the enlightened beings are not traceable/measurable.

With metta,

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Hello Clarity,
It’s exactly what I wrote, but with other words.
With mettā,
AD

Yahoo Mail : Recherchez, organisez, maîtrisez

It wouldn’t be appropriate to say that a mendicant whose mind is freed like this holds the following views:
‘A realized one exists after death’;
‘A realized one no longer exists after death’;
‘A realized one both exists and no longer exists after death’;
‘A realized one neither exists nor no longer exists after death’.

DN 9

Settling on the fourth option doesn’t solve the issue :slight_smile:

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Not possible, there’s no mind in pariNibbāna, no experience of it is possible at all.

Death consciousness is still death. Arahants do perceive Nibbāna while alive, but that’s not pariNibbāna itself. Perceiving Nibbāna is not the same as nibbāna itself.

Do you mean I don’t use words like: maybe, please etc? Please tell me. I am autistic, so I speak to the facts as I see it. And I don’t take into account the emotions of people normally. As forum communication is just words, it’s actually easy for me on forum as I don’t have the additional burden of seeing the body language and tone to take into account. I understand not everyone can adjust to talking to autistic people as we tend to hurt people’s feelings without intending to. Also, I don’t understand the difference between being firm in one’s own view Vs being dogmatic. As it is encouraged in the dhamma to be well established in right view. I had been called dogmatic when I don’t think it’s deserving of it.

One of the basic understanding of not self is that no self doesn’t deny individuality. The Buddha got enlightened doesn’t make everyone else got enlightened. So there’s the valid concept and notion of individual applied to the lifestream going from life to life. Parinibbāna is the complete ending of that lifestream. Since there’s no immoral soul in the lifestream, there’s nothing left in terms of soul or body or mind.

The many suttas on existence of enlightened people is talking about does the soul exist or not or both or neither, when the soul never is found in the first place the question is mute.

If we just talk about whether the 5 aggregates/6 sense base of enlightened people exist or not in parinibbāna, the answer is a clear no. Since that’s all there ever is, and nothing is the opposite of all, it’s fair to say parinibbāna is nothing from our vantage point.

I don’t see how denying such a thing solves your misunderstanding of what not self is.

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So basically you’re saying “One of the basic understanding of X is that X doesn’t deny Non-X”.

Well, it would seem to break the Law of Noncontradiction, Bhante. :slight_smile: Self is individuality (or, as per the suttas, “Me, mine”); hence, non-self should mean non-individuality.

You’re trying to simultaneously index khandas to certain individuals (“This khanda belongs to Buddha’s stream ultimately and not to Dogen’s”) whilst also denying ownership (“This khanda doesn’t belong to Buddha”).

Either the very act of thinking “This is me, this is mine” is mistaken, in which case individuation would also be a mistake; or else, if individuality is taken for a fact, then saying “This is mine” should no longer be a wrong view.

Well actually, again - khandas do not belong to enlightened people (or anyone, really). :slight_smile: But I only add that there could never be an indexing, or discreet streams to which they belonged, which is what’s required for your view of “Absolute nothingness, everywhere, forever” to be applicable.

  • For Absolute Nothingness, you need to posit a real subject who no longer experiences anything anywhere (i.e. “This stream of khandas that once belonged to Buddha no longer arise any more”) - otherwise your distinction is meaningless.

  • And yet, the moment we introduce such a subject (Again, “This stream”), we break the anatta as per my exposition above, since we introduce a valid recipient “This stream” who could’ve declared “Yes, those are my khandas” not conventionally, but ultimately, since those are the very group of khandas that really would belong to one another which you posit not to arise again.

I’m just trying to point how perhaps, Dharma is more complex and intricate than you make it out to be, that there’s something that we’re missing, investigating with epistemic humility, hopefully. :slight_smile:

I can’t exactly say what it is, but I can point out what I understand to be a flaw in your exposition.

:lotus:

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Individuality means that that person does kamma X she gets the vipaka from that kamma X, not another person.

That person ended cause of rebirth, not another person get the results of rebirth ended.

That person experience happy feeling, doesn’t mean everyone else also does.

That is a basic observable fact of life.

Individuality can be taken as self, but it is also not self.

Self is this eternal unchanging, independent thing.

Indeed, given that we can trace an individual to unique and beginningless chain of past lives, it’s tempting to just say that there’s something permanent that passed through the chain unchanged, called the self. But there is not.

Let’s use river analogy, but in this hypothetical world, rivers cannot merge or split. Each river is an individual. It can transport certain things from upstream to downstream, like kamma done in the past taken effect in the present.

It can also end, wherein the river dries up completely and doesn’t appear again. That’s parinibbāna.

A river with self would have a substance that is always there in the river, and after dying up, still exist in parinibbāna somehow.

As a river is ever changing, there’s no substance being found. But that doesn’t deny that if this river dries up, other river still doesn’t dry up. If this river carry some wood downstream, it’s not the downstream of another river that get that wood.

As you might’ve noticed, I steered away from “Self”, because people are happy to deny self when they describe one. :slight_smile:

My observation, hence, relates to the very simple “Me, mine” declaration vis-a-vis the khandas, which should always be a wrong view.

Yet, your idea of “Individual stream of khandas” stand in opposition to this declaration, as that stream could any point declare of any khanda regarding that stream, past, present or future, and declare “Me, mine” as a matter of fact beyond conventions.

Water can not both belong and not belong to the same river, yes?

I hope this makes my objection clear. :slight_smile:

It’s perfectly valid to name the individual rivers as different names, just to ease communication.

It’s also possible to point to the whole river from the top of mountain to the end as the same name due to being able to trace the river from downstream to upstream.

None of this implies a self. These are just naming conventions. Being able to name things doesn’t bring a self into existence. It is when misunderstanding the name to be real, to be independent, referring to an eternal thing that the delusion of self arises.

If I take that water out of this river, I can say the water came from this river. But obviously it’s no longer part of the river when taken out.

So too, when hair is cut, it used to come from this body, but after it is not identified as this body.

It’s just labelling, things are as they are.