Consciousness and the cessation of perception and feeling

Does consciousness exist in the cessation of perception and feeling? If so, what is the object of that consciousness?

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Question: Does consciousness exist in the cessation of perception and feeling? If so, what is the object of that consciousness?

Answer: No. Consciousness does not exist in the cessation of perception and feeling. Therefore, it is not relevant for the question regarding the object of that consciousness.

Real life evidence: phenomenon of anesthetic (or deep sleep). You can verify by yourself or ask anyone comes out of surgery after anesthetic session. You will be very surprised to check later, after you woke up, to learn that how long you have been out of conscious.

Logical reasoning: Consciousness arises based on perception, feeling, formations and physical body. With the stillness of formations and physical body, the temporary cessation of perception, feeling leads to temporary cessation of consciousness.

Sutta to support: DN15 Mahānidānasutta. I have highlighted in bold to show that: consciousness does not have station in the two bases which are not even as refined as the cessation of perception and feeling.

“Ānanda, there are these seven stations for consciousness and two bases. What are the seven?

“There are, Ānanda, beings who are diverse in body and diverse in perception, such as human beings, some gods, and some beings in the lower realms. This is the first station for consciousness.

“There are beings who are diverse in body but identical in perception, such as the gods of the Brahma-order who are generated through the first (jhāna). This is the second station for consciousness.

“There are beings who are identical in body but diverse in perception, such as the gods of streaming radiance. This is the third station for consciousness.

“There are beings who are identical in body and identical in perception, such as the gods of refulgent beauty. This is the fourth station for consciousness.

“There are beings who, through the complete surmounting of perceptions of material form, the passing away of perceptions of impingement, and non-attention to perceptions of diversity, (contemplating) ‘Space is infinite,’ arrive at the base of the infinity of space. This is the fifth station for consciousness.

“There are beings who, having completely surmounted the base of the infinity of space, (contemplating) ‘Consciousness is infinite,’ arrive at the base of the infinity of consciousness. This is the sixth station for consciousness.

“There are beings who, having completely surmounted the base of the infinity of consciousness, (contemplating) ‘There is nothing,’ arrive at the base of nothingness. This is the seventh station for consciousness.

The base of non-percipient beings and, second, the base of neither perception nor non-perception—(these are the two bases).

Take note #1: The realm of cessation of perception and feeling is at arahant level. I am not at arahant level so I can only give answer based on: 1) real life evidence, 2) logical reasoning and 3) sutta quote coming from the Buddha - which is an arahant himself.
Take note #2: There are many other teachers from other schools of thought (who claimed to be at arahant level or assumed by group of people that those teachers are at arahant level). Such teachers offer different answers to your question.

I am NOT here to go into a debate with other answers. :pray:

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I’m curious then based on that sutta what would distinguish the experience of being in the base of neither perception nor non-perception and being in the state of cessation. If in both cases there is no vinnana and thus no experience, how could the experience be different?

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Based on MN 44 Cūḷavedallasutta, I am suggesting here that the difference might be due to the preparation before entrance part and the reflection after-emergence part.

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Hi. Refer to MN 43, which in the beginning says consciousness, perception & feeling are ‘co-joined’ and cannot arise without each other. Later MN 43 discusses the cessation of perception and feeling.

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There is viññāṇa in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.
My understanding is that it’s simply a state where the object of consciousness is so refined (beyond nothingness) that perception cannot be clearly distinguished.
As long as there is perception, even a little bit, viññāṇa is present, as it stands in a mutual conditioning relationship with the 5 factors of nāma (name) (SN 12.67)
It is only with the letting go of all factors of nāma (feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention) that viññāṇa has no support and therefore it ceases allowing one to enter cessation (see DN 9).

Thoughts on this sutta which describes a form of perception beyond the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception?

“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And they wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And yet they would still perceive.”

“But how could this be, sir?”

“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’

That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And they wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And yet they would still perceive.”

AN 10:6

It seems to me that this sutta says that the stilling of all formations, cessation is known, like some teachers also say. It does not seem to contradict sutta.

What i think i understand from Maha Boowa’s description in arhattamagga/phala this perceiving of ‘this is peaceful, the stilling of all formations etc.’…is not from a first person perspective, it is not done by a subject who perceives cessation as object.

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