Corruption of the dhamma

[silence]

@alaber

For the Mahayana tradition that develops starting four hundred years after the Buddha, becoming an arahant is not the goal. The goal is to develop bodhicitta wanting to become a Buddha.

I initially fell for this rhetorical trick, like most people. It is amazing how it has worked so well for 2,000 years and still is now.

Basically it appeals to people’s conceit

I will be a Buddha! Not just a lowly arahant!

This is exactly what I was told when I took an introductory class to Tibetan Buddhism

@alaber

in the suttas we found what needs to be achieved and the tools to be used but not the “recipe” for how to use the tools and when

What about anapanassati?

This practice is highly recommended by the Buddha (SN 54.11), explained in detail, even when to practice it: after one’s meal (SN 54.8, one of the most important suttas), and it leads to those esoteric and seemingly elusive jhanas:

Now, a mendicant might wish: ‘May neither my body nor my eyes became fatigued. And may my mind be freed from grasping without defilements.’ So let them closely focus on this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.

Now, a mendicant might wish: ‘May I give up memories and thoughts of the lay life … may I enter and remain in the first… second… third… fourth absorption…

To me the reason why people got confused about what jhana is is because their predecessors neglected practicing them so they had no one to tell them there was no mystery: just follow SN 54.8 and you’ll get there. I assume in the course of history some individuals must have gotten it.

From “The Life of Nyanatiloka Thera The Biography of a Western Buddhist Pioneer” p.11:

[Raftafarian]

Large institutions, especially those endorsed by the state (think Emperor Ashoka) eventually have their own agendas. Converts often bring their own baggage as well.

[Green]

I feel it is not beneficial to talk about corruption of Dhamma because we will never ever really know.

Oke, now then you can assume EBT is the real Dhamma, or you assume that parts of EBT are the real Dhamma or the Pali Canon as w whole is real Dhamma or Abhidhamma is the real higher dhamma…pffff…whatever.

I believe such ideas about corruption and also what is pure Dhamma only feed bad unwholesome qualities.

Buddha did study his mind. And what do his pupils? They are always, day in day out, fighting with eachother what is true Dhamma, pure Dhamma, what-the-Buddha-really taught, absolute Dhamma, universal Dhamma, light of Dhamma…
“In this and that text it said this and that”…using texts as weapens in battle. Trying to convince others and especially oneself. am fed up with it. I am gonna stop.

[Raftafarian]

@Green

I believe such ideas about corruption and also what is pure Dhamma only feed bad unwholesome qualities.

I see no way around it. The canon, as we have it, is several canons. Its like a bag with puzzle pieces from many puzzles. If we put together puzzle pieces that actually fit together and are of the same thickness, material, etc… and produce a coherent whole, we almost certainly have a canon. It may be one of many in the bag, but we can at least make sense of it and evaluate it for whether or not we want to organize our lives around it. The alternative is going on in a state of profound cognitive dissonance, kidding ourselves that what is in the bag is a coherent whole produced by one person.

[silence]

@Green

I believe such ideas about corruption and also what is pure Dhamma only feed bad unwholesome qualities.

Buddha did study his mind. And what do his pupils? They are always, day in day out, fighting with eachother what is true Dhamma, pure Dhamma, what-the-Buddha-really taught,

There are many indications that the Buddha wanted his disciples to admonish those who would hold views that are contrary to Dhamma and Vinaya. So your idiosyncrasy is that you may not like it, but that doesn’t make it a worthless conversation at all. Judging by what came down to us in the suttas and the vinaya, the Buddha would have wanted us to discuss what is the true Dhamma and what isn’t

[thomaslaw]

@alaber

When you look at the suttas, vipassanā is not described as a practice. It is a quality that needs to be developed. If you look at the number of suttas where the word vipassanā appears, compare to the number of suttas where the words samatha, jhāna, and samādhi appear, you will see that the word vipassanā appears very rarely and it’s almost all the time associated with samatha or samādhi. For me, samatha and vipassanā are the two sides of the same coin. It is a set of qualities, samatha is peacefulness, tranquillity of body and mind and vipassanā is the insight as a result of that. You don’t ‘do’ vipassanā , you don’t ‘do’ samatha .

The term, vipassana ‘insight’, is a noun form. It combines two elements, vi and the verbal form, passati, in the sense that ‘seeing completely and perfectly’, phenomena as they really are. For the practical meaning of vipassana, you need to look at the verbal form, passati, in the suttas (particularly in SN/SA suttas). Note: passati is always come together with another verb, jaanaati.

Thus, samatha and vipassana are not the same practice.

E.g.:
Page 34 from The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism Choong Mun-keat 2000.pdf (69.3 KB)
Page 53 from The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism Choong Mun-keat 2000.pdf (87.8 KB)

[CurlyCarl]

@alaber

What could be the reason to re-insert into the dhamma the samāpattis that he rejected before becoming the Buddha?.. This causes major confusion for people who thought then that jhānas are the result of concentrative practice, while jhānas occur naturally as a result of having abandoned the five hindrances.

It seems MN 140 has a good discussion about this matter, namely, why to not continue samadhi development into the immaterial spheres. In short, it seems the four immaterial spheres are excessive thus unnecessary. Yet, imo, they do represent a continuation of samadhi development. Keep in mind a stock phrase in the suttas about the departure from samadhi development is: "When my mind had become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended/directed it toward… " Therefore, it seems, for the Buddha, the purity of the 4th jhana was sufficient or ideal for use in wisdom/insight development.

@alaber

The new goal of bodhicitta is the second major corruption of the dhamma.

Possibly @SDC can comment on this, in light of their apparent exaltation or veneration of the missionary monks in AN 6.46, who were ‘practising’ for the welfare and happiness of the people, for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of gods and humans.

@alaber

For me, that means that you should find “Noble persons”, stream-enterers and arahants in all four communities.

I’m not sure it counts, i.e., is conclusive, but AN 9.7 says: 'A mendicant with defilements ended can’t… have sex… store up goods for their own enjoyment like they did as a lay person.’ Plus the suttas seems to have no accounts of lay arahants.

@alaber

You don’t ‘do’ vipassanā, you don’t ‘do’ samatha.

MN 149 seems to strongly support the above conclusion.

@alaber

jhana… others are physical

The issue or unclarity or subject of debate here seems to be the word ‘kaya’ used in the 3rd jhana description (sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṁvedesiṁ) or used in the similes in MN 119, etc, may not necessarily refer to the physical body. ‘Kaya’ is one of those words, similar to sankhara & dhamma, with diverse contextual usage.

@alaber

Instead, we have to develop a “complete view” for each component of our specific list of cravings, fears and aversions that would allow us to then put in place the “right intention” to abandon them.

Very good. I agree.

@alaber

there are no suttas describing in detail… the additional stages of once-returner and non-returner.

There seem not many but there seems to be a some such as AN 3.86 and Iti 96.

Excellent post btw. Thank you

[SDC]

@CurlyCarl

Possibly @SDC can comment on this, in light of their apparent exaltation or veneration of the missionary monks in AN 6.46, who were ‘practising’ for the welfare and happiness of the people, for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of gods and humans.

You mean the monks who the Buddha called “rare”?

“Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: ‘Those of us who are meditators will praise those bhikkhus who are Dhamma specialists.’ Thus should you train yourselves. For what reason? Because, friends, these persons are astounding and rare in the world who see a deep and pithy matter after piercing it through with wisdom.”

It’s always a joy to have so much of your attention. I honestly wish I had more time to address each of your comments.

[CurlyCarl]

@SDC

You mean the monks who the Buddha called “rare”?

Yes. I imagine it is “rare” for monks to devote themselves to mere scholarship but without fruits of meditation. Personally, I have met merely a few in my life therefore it is indeed “rare”.

@SDC

It’s always a joy to have so much of your attention.

Thank you. I do recall the Buddha taught somewhere metta for others brings joy.

[thomaslaw]

@alaber

the vipassanā movement is something relatively recent in the Buddhist world. As far as I know, it started at the end of the 19 century in Burma. From there it spread around the world and became a popular movement that we are still living through at the moment. When you look at the suttas, vipassanā is not described as a practice.

As I mentioned above, the practice of vipassana is presented in the SN/SA suttas in the content of the verbal form, passati-janati (i.e., right view) Corruption of the dhamma - #8 by thomaslaw

So, the vipassana movement in Burma and the practice of passati (right view) indicated in Samyutta/Samyukta suttas are not entirely the same teaching.

[Green]

@silence

There are many indications that the Buddha wanted his disciples to admonish those who would hold views that are contrary to Dhamma and Vinaya. So your idiosyncrasy is that you may not like it, but that doesn’t make it a worthless conversation at all. Judging by what came down to us in the suttas and the vinaya, the Buddha would have wanted us to discuss what is the true Dhamma and what isn’t

It is an enourmous task to become oneself and let go of all these ego-longing and really stop fighting or defending and protecting this or that. This ego always wants to fight for something. A fighter must fight. If he cannot fight, he feels lost.

Especially the accumulation of scriptural knowledge becomes the spiritual ego’s battlefield. I see this very clearly, in myself and others. Yes, addicted to fighting, the spiritual ego stands up as a real and pure Dhamma-protector who will teach and correct others (never himself!). This is ultimate self- and other-deception.

All this fighting over what is true and pure Dhamma is only bhava tanha. It is only addiction to passion and self/ego-aggrandizement. Even if one would like do it otherwise, one cannot. The kilesa’s are totally in control.

How hard it is to let go of this…the holy fight, the holy battle about a true and pure Dhamma…My Lord, we are lost, Lord we are lost.

Would the Buddha stimulate this, surely not. Moreover, Buddha always says that one must correct others with a loving heart. This is not happening. People critizise others never with a loving heart but with a heart full of defilements, teachings them a lesson but not teaching Dhamma.

Oke, some do their utmost best to forcefully supress their hate, the agression and pretent a loving and caring atmosphere, but one who knows and sees cannot be fooled anymore. It is all madness.
With love for Dhamma it has nothing to do.

When will the fighter ever stop fighting? What needs to happen for this? One can say: practice Dhamma, but the problem is, for a fighter also Dhamma practice becomes a battlefield.

[silence]

@Green

really stop fighting or defending and protecting this or that. This ego always wants to fight for something. A fighter must fight. If he cannot fight, he feels lost.

Or alternatively we can engage in polite and thoughtful debate. There is no reason polite and thoughtful discussions should be impossible, is there?

[thomaslaw]

You fight about what?

[faujidoc1]

[ORsEnTURVi]

Then it might come to even worse situation:

Question: Are you coming to bed?
Answer: I won’t (never). This is important.
Question: What?
Answer: Everyone else says that I am wrong on the internet.
(or another version: No one else is right on the internet.)

[Nessie]

Hmmm,
first I didn’t think to get involved in the discourse of this thread at all …

@Green

This ego always wants to fight for something. A fighter must fight.

When will the fighter ever stop fighting?

But just a bell ringed to recall a poem, that I’ve written in my young years (~24 yrs) on fighting and how do we stop this/ourselves …

Especially the accumulation of scriptural knowledge becomes the spiritual ego’s battlefield. I see this very clearly, in myself and others. Yes, addicted to fighting, the spiritual ego stands up as a real and pure Dhamma-protector who will teach and correct others (never himself!). This is ultimate self- and other-deception.
(…)
How hard it is to let go of this…the holy fight, the holy battle about a true and pure

Unfortunately, I think (at the moment) I cannot give a good translation to english, but perhaps there are some here around understanding german and as well interested in this workout
(Remark: the “VVN” is a community of victims of the nazi-regime in Germany, and I as a young man tried to get contact, and inspiration, from them; the poem is a reflection after a visit on an event in my hometown)

@Nessie - from diary 1976

AntiFa

(Nach einer Gedenkveranstaltung der VVN/Bund der Antifaschisten – ca 1976)

Du brichst beglückt aus deiner Schale
Du keimst! In dir drin, da steckt ein Wald!
Du bist ein Korn in Mutter Erde,
doch die Erde ist sehr kalt

_____ Dann suchst du Freunde in der Nacht, Freunde in der Nacht,
_____ die dieses Spiel schon mal gemacht,
_____ die dir erzähln von ihrer Zeit -
_____ du find’st Vergeßlichkeit.

Du wirst ein Halm und wehst im Wind
suchst deinesgleichen, die die fröhlich sind
Doch jedes Gras hat seinen Ort,
es schwankt mit dir, doch kommt’s nicht fort

Du wirst die Ähre, fühlst den Samen
begreifst die Zeit, als Mörder kamen
du ekelst dich, beginnst zu denken,
wagst kaum der Welt ein Kind zu schenken

_____ Dann suchst du Freunde in der Nacht, Freunde in der Nacht,
_____ die dieses Spiel schon mal gemacht,
_____ die dir erzähln von ihrer Zeit -
_____ du findest Trunkenheit.

Du siehst den Bambus, der sich jedem Winde biegt,
du siehst die Eiche, die zerschnitten an der Erde liegt
den Sproß, in dem das Lied der Freiheit schwingt
und siehst ein Gift, das still zu Alles Wurzel sinkt.

Du ahnst, daß heute noch der Schnitter lebt
Du fühlst, daß jemand wieder Gräber gräbt
Du preist den Sproß, der von der Freiheit spricht
und predigst Sturm, der diesen eklen Bambus endlich bricht

_____ Dann suchst du Freunde in der Nacht, Freunde in der Nacht,
_____ die dieses Spiel schon mal gemacht,
_____ die dir erzähln von ihrer Zeit -
_____ du find’st Geschwätzigkeit!

=======================

Um dich das Gift, das für nur seine Freiheit wirbt
um dich die Grille, die stets nur im Frieden zirpt
ein Halm, der zärtlich nahe Ähren schlägt
ein Wind, der deinen Samen weiterträgt

=======================

Don’t know what “happened” here to (spiritually) “stop fighting for the ego” Perhaps it has been a good exercise to be able to find contact to the Buddha another 24 years later …

[Dhammanando]

@alaber

If you look at the number of suttas where the word vipassanā appears, compare to the number of suttas where the words samatha, jhāna, and samādhi appear, you will see that the word vipassanā appears very rarely

I don’t think much can be inferred from that, for in the suttas vipassanā is most often expressed not with the word “vipassanā”, but rather with the phrase:

X yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṁ

“X should be seen as it really is with right understanding.”

Of this phrase, there are 216 occurrences in the first four Nikāyas:

DN. 3
MN. 74
SN. 111
AN. 28

[Charlie]

@alaber

Corruption of the dhamma

To me it’s kind of like debating which branch of a tree most authentically represents the trunk. Things change and evolve - so it goes. The solution is pretty simple: just find a native speaker of Pali that grew up in 5th century bc vedic India and is fluent in modern language and culture. They can explain everything. I am confident that all the various translators will get on board immediately.

[Green]

@silence

Or alternatively we can engage in polite and thoughtful debate. There is no reason polite and thoughtful discussions should be impossible, is there?

My feeling is: The real corruption of Dhamma is happening in our own hearts. Maybe that is a huge platitude but i feel that all this searching for a one and only pure or true Dhamma, and all this propagating of a one and only pure Dhamma is itself a form of corruption. This is not to accuse someone. I always sense it is defiled with hate and greed, because what one seeks is not Dhamma but grip. They build a system of thoughts upon stuyding the texts. The sense of grip and order that is created, does cool them down. They feel they now understand Dhamma. They enjoy in the intellectual clarity like people in science who enjoy the beauty of formula’s.

They have a consistent picture in their head in which all pieces of the Dhamma puzzle fit. But it is also idiosychronic. The chooses one makes are solely subjective, rooted in emotions, will, longings, but that they will never ever admit. They feel there idiosynchronic Dhamma-thought-system is pure objectivity. This becomes with years stronger and stronger, especially when others enjoy the clarity of this thought system.

I do not want to accuse anybody but this is how i feel when people are propagating a pure Dhamma, a real understanding. Ofcourse they themselves never corrupt Dhamma, always others.

But for many it is attractive. The brain likes order and such people deliver a certain intellectual order and grip on Dhamma. But it is also very vulnarable to rely on this sense of order and thought-system.

I do feel the order of the mind of a Buddha is not based upon such intellectual grip and system but on letting that go.

[awarewolf]

I experience that the heart never corrupts anything, but it is the mental activities that seeks and veils the heart that does. Mind cant find the heart, so being stuck in the concept of fullness of mind wont do the trick. So there is the activity of mindfulness, and there is the stillness of heartfulness.