Craving for spiritual attainments

[SeriousFun136]

@alaber

What fetter is it (sensual desires?) when one has craving (big or small) for spiritual attainments.

@alaber

So if not sensual desire then what hindrance is craving for spiritual attainments that I believe is preventing them to occur?

Arahatship is a spiritual attainment, perhaps the “biggest” and best that there is.
This attainment is the end of dukkha.
It seems to be the attainment of an unconditional state of happiness beyond dukkha.
Compassion is the wish or desire for the decrease of dukkha for oneself, others, or both oneself and others.

Thus, the desire for spiritual attainments that the Buddha himself taught were worth attaining, might be chanda or piha as mentioned by Venerable Brahmali:

@Brahmali

But for chanda , and a few other words that denote desire

@Brahmali

Pali word piha

or even some form of compassion: looking for way out of dukkha through spiritual attainments up to and including Arahantship.

The idea of “craving for spiritual attainments” being a “fetter” seems to be a relatively misguided one that does not have a firm and solid basis in the EBT’s.

These three kinds of people are found in the world.
What three?
The hopeless, the hopeful, and the one who has done away with hope.

And what, mendicants, is a hopeless person?
It never occurs to them: ‘Oh, when will the aristocrats anoint me too as king?’ This is called a hopeless person.

And what, mendicants, is a hopeful person?
It occurs to him: ‘Oh, when will the aristocrats anoint me too as king?’ This is called a hopeful person.

And what, mendicants, is a person who has done away with hope?
It never occurs to him: ‘Oh, when will the aristocrats anoint me too as king?’ Why is that? Because the former hope he had to be anointed has now died down. This is called a person who has done away with hope.

…And what, mendicants, is a person who has done away with hope? It’s when a mendicant is a perfected one, who has ended all defilements. They hear this: ‘They say that the mendicant named so-and-so has realized the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And they live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements.’ It never occurs to them: ‘Oh, when will I too realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life, and live having realized it with my own insight due to the ending of defilements.’ Why is that? Because the former hope they had to be freed has now died down. This is called a person who has done away with hope.
-AN 3.13
SuttaCentral

[Viveka]

@SeriousFun136

Compassion is the wish or desire for the decrease of dukkha for oneself

Care needs to be taken to identify the difference between aversion (a form of desire) for the unpleasant/suffering as opposed to feeling compassion for those experiencing suffering.

Remembering also, that conditioning leads to both happiness and suffering - and that the unravelling or dissolution of conditioning leads to equanimity and transcendence of both happiness and suffering.

@Mat

the equanimity arrived at by insight, is the one Buddha praised. It’s said that craving must be removed from pleasant feeling, aversion must be removed from unpleasant feeling and ignorance must be removed from equanimity -MN44 SuttaCentral

[sujato]

@Brahmali

Yes, this is clearly wrong

Yes, the mistake has been fixed, we are implementing it with our new awesome lookup tool.

[SeriousFun136]

@Viveka

Remembering also, that conditioning leads to both happiness and suffering - and that the unravelling or dissolution of conditioning leads to equanimity and transcendence of both happiness and suffering.

What do you mean by “conditioning”?

[anon98123616]

@Brahmali

the person who is practising for the attainment of stream-entry (etc.), sometimes called the “path attainer”

When does this happen? What criteria? How does one know???

[Viveka]

Greetings Anun, and welcome to the forum

Your questions have been discussed a lot on the forum and there are several dedicated threads to them. To check if questions have been asked and answered, you can use the search function - the large Q on the top right menu bar.

By putting in the search terms, ‘stream entry’, the following list is generated. Have a look through and if you still have any unanswered questions, feel free to ask away

Metta

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/search?q=stream%20entry%20

[karl_lew]

@anon98123616

How does one know???

Hello Anun! Here’s a short introduction as well…

SN55.39:3.7: “You’re fortunate, Godhā, so very fortunate, You have declared the fruit of stream-entry.”

[ZenKen]

Ajahn Brahm gives a nice answer to this question, and he stays on topic for the discussion here too about how one deals with spiritual attainments! The link starts at 48:03 with the question, and the answer ends at 51:38.

[Brahmali]

@anon98123616

When does this happen?

It happens when you reach a certain level of faith (saddhānusārī) or insight (dhammānusārī). At this point you are guaranteed to become a streamenterer at the latest on your deathbed.

@anon98123616

What criteria?

You don’t see any specific aspect of experience as nicca, sukha, or attā. On the other hand, you have not yet achieved the insight of the streamenterer that all experience is anicca, dukkha, and anattā. In other words, if anyone were to ask you about a specific aspect of experience you would know its true nature. But you wouldn’t yet have made the leap to universalise this as applying to everything.

@anon98123616

How does one know???

No-one knows! At least I don’t.

Here are a few suttas that touch on this topic: SN 25.1-10, AN 5.151-153, AN 6.98-101.