Craving vs Desire vs Intent. What's the difference?

The Watercooler
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I just read a Medium article on how pop media distorted Buddha’s message regarding desire with the catchphrase “Desire is the root of all suffering”. One of the comments, presumably from a Buddhist, said that Buddha never said this and that the correct translation is “craving”.

Colloquially, I don’t see the difference. When I say “I’m craving ice cream”, it just means “I want ice cream” or “I desire ice cream”, they’re synonymous. Are the two the same?

If yes, then is there a difference between craving and intent? To me, any intent towards an action implies craving (“I’m intending to do ‘x’ action” or “My intent was ‘y’.” thus implying some kind of pursuit of a goal i.e. desire), so even intending to say (and then saying) “Desire is the root of all suffering” involves desire. In the same vein, saying “You ought to avoid desire” is itself phrased as a desire.

Can someone clarify these concepts from a Buddhist point of view?

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Because in Buddhism we have “chanda” — wholesome desire. For example, the desire for all beings to be free from suffering.

This avoids the contradiction you point out and is the reason this is called a mistranslation of “taṇhā” = thirst or craving.

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And yet, the holy life is lived to abandon chanda, no, bhante? Re SN 51.15.

“Worthy Ānanda, what’s the purpose of leading the spiritual life under the ascetic Gotama?”
“kimatthiyaṁ nu kho, bho ānanda, samaṇe gotame brahmacariyaṁ vussatī”ti?

“The purpose of leading the spiritual life under the Buddha, brahmin, is to give up desire.”
“Chandappahānatthaṁ kho, brāhmaṇa, bhagavati brahmacariyaṁ vussatī”ti.

Likewise, SN 47.37 is an entire sutta about giving up specifically chanda through four stages of mindfulness.

We have a few examples of chanda not necessarily being wholesome, in the suttas:

MN 112, for example, chanda and tanha are uttered under the same breath as obstacles:

‘I understand that my mind is freed through the ending, fading away, cessation, giving away, and letting go of desire and greed and relishing and craving; attraction, grasping, mental fixation, insistence, and underlying tendency for the eye, sights, eye consciousness, and things knowable by eye consciousness.
‘cakkhusmiṁ, āvuso, rūpe cakkhuviññāṇe cakkhuviññāṇaviññātabbesu dhammesu yo chando yo rāgo yā nandī yā taṇhā ye ca upāyūpādānā cetaso adhiṭṭhānābhinivesānusayā tesaṁ khayā virāgā nirodhā cāgā paṭinissaggā vimuttaṁ me cittanti pajānāmi.

Then, in SN 22.25:

“Mendicants, give up desire and greed for form.
“Yo, bhikkhave, rūpasmiṁ chandarāgo taṁ pajahatha.

Or in SN 22.67:

“Mendicant, give up desire for anything that’s suffering.”
“Yaṁ kho, bhikkhu, dukkhaṁ; tatra te chando pahātabbo”ti.

And one of the five obstacles DN 13:

The hindrances of sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt.
Kāmacchandanīvaraṇaṁ, byāpādanīvaraṇaṁ, thinamiddhanīvaraṇaṁ, uddhaccakukkuccanīvaraṇaṁ, vicikicchānīvaraṇaṁ.

Implying that one can have chanda for unwholesome things as well.

I believe the most important distinction, as in the remark of Ananda, is that chanda allows for relinquishing of chanda, therefore being useful on the path for that purpose. Sn 51.13 is a good pointer in that vein:

“Mendicants, if a mendicant depends on enthusiasm in order to gain immersion, gain unification of mind, this is called immersion due to enthusiasm.
“Chandañce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu nissāya labhati samādhiṁ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṁ, ayaṁ vuccati chandasamādhi.

In EBTs, I haven’t come across the division of wholesome desiring/unwholesome desiring kind of division for chanda/tanha. It doesn’t seem to be inherently wholesome - it rather seems like a necessary mechanism that serves to defeat itself eventually - just the very act of having intentionality.

Tanha seems to be specifically about three things, as per Iti 58:

“Mendicants, there are these three cravings. What three? Craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving to end existence. These are the three cravings.”
“Tisso imā, bhikkhave, taṇhā. Katamā tisso? Kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā— imā kho, bhikkhave, tisso taṇhā”ti.

Seems like a very Freudian libidinal desiring, rather than wanting in abstract.

Even in the general English translation -desire & craving- I can see how Having desire to reach Nirvana sounds just a little more healthy and balanced than Having a craving to reach Nirvana. The later sounds, a little more desperate! :sweat_smile: The difference really seems one of degrees, or expression, really.

But for the most part, they’re both things to be abandoned in the end, which is probably all that matters.

I’ve seen quite a bit in Mahayana literature the division of chanda/tanha, though. The kind of things like “the desire for all beings to be free from suffering.” being chanda; and tanha being selfish desires.

I would not be surprised if the said Medium article was written with a Mahayanist perspective. :slight_smile:

Finally we have SN 1.69:

“Desire is what binds the world.
By the removing of desire it’s freed.
With the giving up of desire,
all bonds are severed.”

“Icchāya bajjhatī loko,
icchāvinayāya muccati;
Icchāya vippahānena,
sabbaṁ chindati bandhanan”ti.

Here the word iccha means something like wishing/wanting.

And SN 22.31:

"And what is the root of misery? It’s the craving that leads to future lives, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure wherever it lands. That is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving to end existence. This is called the root of misery.”

Katamañca, bhikkhave, aghamūlaṁ? Yāyaṁ taṇhā ponobhavikā nandīrāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī; Seyyathidaṁ—kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā. Idaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, aghamūlan”ti.

And here we have tanha.

Therefore, while I can’t remember exactly if “Desire is the root of suffering” in verbatim syntax in the suttas, I think poetically it still captures Dhamma as per EBT tradition - though Mahayana would likely differ in this. The closest thing is probably this last sutta.

Really, though - a rose by any other name. :slight_smile:

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Exactly what translation is used for taṇha isn’t that important, because there are different types of wanting/craving/desire. The type of wanting that causes rebirth is what the Buddha is concerned with:

Now this is the noble truth of the origin of suffering. It’s the craving that leads to future lives, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure wherever it lands. That is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving to end existence. (SN 56.11)

Perhaps they imply slightly different degrees of wanting, but they are “the same” in the sense that they imply the mind seeking out pleasure in the senses (imo).

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Yes, along with literally everything else. Even the Dhamma is let go in the end. But that’s at the Arahant level, after you’ve overcome greed as an Anāgāmī. Don’t skip steps!

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All this, and you never mention that chanda is also one of the four bases of power (iddhipaddha)? The four bases of power are among the fundamentals that are singled out in MN103:3.2, but are somewhat neglected compared to the others listed there (perhaps no more so than the bala and indriyani).

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:slight_smile: Aforementioned SN51.13 is an interesting, unique discourse on the four samadhis of bases of power:

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Greetings,

An important nuance here is that this “abandoning of literally everything” is needed on a metaphysical level only. No need to abandon one’s house or partner. :slight_smile:

There is also not really a way to skip steps, since the path is gradual. Until one has seen through the dhamma, one hasn’t seen through the dhamma.

Warm regards,
Peter

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The Arahantavagga of the Dhammapada:

At journey’s end, rid of sorrow;
everywhere free,
all ties given up,
no fever is found in them.

The mindful apply themselves;
they delight in no abode.
Like a swan gone from the marsh,
they leave home after home behind.

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You take that verse very literally, although it says “home”, not “house”. To me the verse describes that an arahant doesn’t cling to anything. “They delight in no abode.” Just “Like a swan gone from the marsh, they leave home after home behind.” Which doesn’t mean that one should abandon one’s house and go live on the streets. Of course, one could build some walls, put a roof over it, call it a monastery and live in it. But at the moment one calls it one’s home, one is clinging.

warm regards,
Peter

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Venerable Payutto has a nice table in Buddhadhamma that lays out the useful tanha-chandha framework. I suggest reading the whole of Chapter 10 to get a fuller understanding of the Buddha’s teachings on desire.

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Also, respectfully, Dogen quoted only a snippet from the beginning of SN 51.15, which by itself is misleading. The whole sutta is below and it clearly shows that desire is to be abandoned via desire and exertion.

So I have heard.
At one time Venerable Ānanda was staying near Kosambī, in Ghosita’s Monastery.
Then Uṇṇābha the brahmin went up to Venerable Ānanda, and exchanged greetings with him.
When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to him,
“Worthy Ānanda, what’s the purpose of leading the spiritual life under the ascetic Gotama?”

“The purpose of leading the spiritual life under the Buddha, brahmin, is to give up desire.”

“But is there a path and a practice for giving up that desire?”

“There is.”

“What is that path?”

“It’s when a mendicant develops the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to enthusiasm …
energy …
mental development …
inquiry, and active effort.
This is the path and the practice for giving up that desire.”

“This being the case, worthy Ānanda, the path is endless, not finite.
For it’s not possible to give up desire by means of desire.”

“Well then, brahmin, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.
What do you think, brahmin?
Have you ever had a desire to walk to the park,
but when you arrived at the park, the corresponding desire faded away?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Have you ever had the energy to walk to the park,
but when you arrived at the park, the corresponding energy faded away?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Have you ever had the idea to walk to the park,
but when you arrived at the park, the corresponding idea faded away?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Have you ever inquired regarding a walk to the park,
but when you arrived at the park, the corresponding inquiry faded away?”

“Yes, sir.”

“In the same way, take a mendicant who is perfected—with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetter of continued existence, and is rightly freed through enlightenment. They formerly had the desire to attain perfection, but when they attained perfection the corresponding desire faded away.
They formerly had the energy to attain perfection, but when they attained perfection the corresponding energy faded away.
They formerly had the idea to attain perfection, but when they attained perfection the corresponding idea faded away.
They formerly inquired regarding attaining perfection, but when they attained perfection the corresponding inquiry faded away.
What do you think, brahmin?
This being the case, is the path endless or finite?”

“Clearly, worthy Ānanda, this being the case, the path is finite, not endless.
Excellent, worthy Ānanda! Excellent!
As if he were righting the overturned, or revealing the hidden, or pointing out the path to the lost, or lighting a lamp in the dark so people with clear eyes can see what’s there, the worthy Ānanda has made the teaching clear in many ways.
I go for refuge to the worthy Gotama, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha.
From this day forth, may the worthy Ānanda remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

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Difference in attachment to mental objects and skillful motivation
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In my view, the word ‘Chanda’ mostly carry positive connotation (like Dhamma chanda, kusala chanda) and sometimes negative or unwholesome meaning (kamachanda, adhamma chanda or akusala chanda).

The word ‘chanda’ itself is neutral meaning rhythm, vibration, frequency (my translation that feels more accurate to me from my upbringing in India). In Indian poetry/music/chantings ‘chanda’ means rythm/metre/beat/pulse/stressed or unstressed syllable in vocalization. Tanha is based on ignorance and lack of understanding of dhammachanda.

The wholesome desire, intention, mind-body-breath energy vibration (dhamma chanda) for spiritual growth and liberation for the benefit of all beings is essential for fruition of the Noble Eightfold (or 10-fold) path.

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