14 posts were merged into an existing topic: Holding thread - pl don’t contribute
I do not believe that the Buddha taught racist or supremacist ideology. He did not teach that we are equal either. In my understand, what he taught is that there is white and dark kamma and their fruits were not dismissed as meaningless. However, their ephemeral nature makes clinging to them causing suffering.
I am not a holocaust denier. I do not have the urge to confirm it all the time because i do not see value in denying it. My skepticism about history is not whether these tragic events took place or not, or whether fascism is an evil ideology or not, but the belief that a collective acknowledgement is a necessary condition for understanding evil and not repeating it. One drawback of this approach is that it could make denying historical facts appealing to many.
It is fairly easy to see that passages such as these;
“Now, Ānanda, gifts to the following individuals may be expected to yield the following returns.
“Giving a gift to an animal, yields a return a hundred times over.
Giving a gift to an unvirtuous ordinary person, yields a return a thousand times over.
Giving a gift to a virtuous ordinary person, yields a return a hundred thousand times over (100,000).
Giving a gift to an outsider free of desire for sense pleasures, yields a return a trillion times over (1,000,000,000,000).
But giving a gift to someone practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry yields incalculable, immeasurable returns. How much more so giving a gift to a stream-enterer? How much more so giving a gift to someone practicing to realize the fruit of once-return? How much more so giving a gift to a once-returner? How much more so giving a gift to someone practicing to realize the fruit of non-return? How much more so giving a gift to a non-returner? How much more so giving a gift to someone practicing to realize the fruit of arahantship? How much more so giving a gift to an arahant? How much more so giving a gift to a Private Buddha?
“How much more so giving a gift to the Supreme Buddha?
Can lead a person to draw wrong conclusions if they are to ignore verses like these;
“One to whom it might occur,
‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’
Or ‘I’m anything at all’—
Is fit for Mara to address.”
I am not even going to try explaining any of this because if i am misunderstood, i too, might be called a fascist or whatnot.
To refute stupid views one can point out things like the hypocrisy of any one person who looks down on another when he himself has actually been just like that a countless amount of times [in past lives].
Whosoever debased by his pride, exalts himself and belittles other — know him as an outcast.
It’s disturbing that a Buddhist would have the view that people should not be speaking out against racism. That is very regressive and it opens the door to discrimination and violence. Racism is not equal to anti-racism. Racism and other forms of hate have very real consequences.
Burying our heads in the sand and feigning ignorance about racism is backward. It does a disservice to those who are oppressed through acts of hate. Buddhism in the 21st century should be making the world a better place, not making things worse.
Also notice the reemergence of both-sides-ism. This time in the form of racism and anti-racism being equated with one another. Yes, I will question those motivations.
Participants are requested to please avoid calling each other names, accusing others of being fascists, racists, antisemitics etc.
This thread is temporarily suspended, pending moderator deliberations.
Please be advised, for the second time,
This topic is now on a 30 minute timer, which means you will spend some time thinking before you post.
When you reflect, if you know: ‘This verbal action that I wish to do would lead to my own affliction, or to the affliction of others, or to the affliction of both; it is an unwholesome verbal action with painful consequences, with painful results,’ then you definitely should not do such a verbal action.
But when you reflect, if you know: ‘This verbal action that I wish to do would not lead to my own affliction, or to the affliction of others, or to the affliction of both; it is a wholesome verbal action with pleasant consequences, with pleasant results,’ then you may do such a verbal action.
and I can make go make dinner for my kids without having to worry about this topic blowing up again.
You cannot avoid presenting Evola as a fascist because he is specifically showing buddhism in the light of fascist philosophy. It’s eel-wriggling to try and avoid that at all, The thread was aptly titled “Debunking/Rebuking Julius Evola and his influence on the AltRight” because his views are and remain inspired by and to the end goal of promoting a fascist dhamma. We aren’t talking about Julius Evola the person, we are talking about his ideas of “should the dhamma be used to justify killing Jewish people?”
“Are non whites human enough to practice the dhamma?”
“Does the dhamma advocate violence and slaughter?”
“Does the dhamma advocate caste systems?”
“Are non whites not human at all?”
“Is it alright to kill the people I dislike?”
Presenting Evola with his views in mind are presenting him in an honest way and giving preparation to see what he’s actually saying. I think also it’s a bit unwise to hold opinions such as yours when you haven’t read into his book at all nor who he is and have claimed a general lack of knowing to what fascism properly is. If you don’t know who the person is, how can you have any kind of view on him at all, wrong or right?
Thats because it is suspicious. You can’t “decouple from his personal view” when his personal view is the entire foundation and purpose of his writings. If perhaps, like HP Lovecraft, he’d just been writing on something without meaning to invoke his biases…then this kind of position makes sense. We can learn and appreciate alot of Lovecrafts work when we read it as it is.
But, the issue is that he isn’t like Lovecraft, he wasn’t writing from as non personal a point as possible. He specifically wrote about buddhism within the confines of his own views, to promote and advocate his views as being the dhamma.
Debunking his views is no different than when they rebuked Devadatta on account of his own views as well.
As we are not discussing Evola the person, we must be discussing his views on Buddhism. Have you read the book Dana? If so, please quote where in the book he proposes what you described above. If you cannot find any, then quote from the book what you find evil so we can discuss it rationally.
His views on buddhism, are inherently, his personal views involving fascism.
He says this himself, openly even. He directly states he wrote about buddhism and interpreted buddhism to promote those views. You cannot separate his personal views from his views on buddhism when he himself pointed out they were connected and aimed towards the goal of promoting fascist spirituality.
We’ve given examples, links, quotes, proving the claims given in the thread.
You can’t separate his fascist ideology from his views on buddhism when his views are buddhism were in his own words only a vehicle to connect to his fascist interpretations of hinduism.
Julius Evola was not shy about this, he has said himself that his goals were to promote his view when he wrote, and when he talked about his view of buddhism.
Your views about him are duly noted, but again, have you read the book? can you quote what you find evil from the book?
Leaving ideology and views aside for one moment, much of what has been written on this thread in the last 20-30 posts contravenes Forum Guidelines in one of two ways:
a) It is too personal
b) It is off-topic.
Stand-up debates between two people are seldom edifying to observe, yet they can be of crucial importance to those involved. So – whilst trying to keep this thread coherent – I have deflected some of this interaction to a PM where the discussion can continue in private. @Erik_ODonnell and @Bundokji please report back here if you are able to clarify your differences, and you are, of course, welcome to continue interacting with folks in general on this thread.
Thanks SDC, this is a really valuable comment, and your analysis is spot on.
I think it’s important to have some awareness of these issues, because one is likely to encounter them in the wild, and it’s easy to get caught up in it if you don’t know the background. At the same time, there’s no there there, there’s nothing that’s actually wise or compassionate or worthwhile. So it’s not something that’s worth spending time over, unless you’re doing a thesis or something.
As Akaliko said:
I agree, and the book that they happened to encounter as young men in wartime is really just a random happenstance. We all come across lots of odd things in our journey, and they don’t define us unless we let them.
I think, in understanding people who twist the dhamma to support bad ideologies of today, it’s important to consider how the dhamma was twisted to support bad ideologies of the past, going all the way back to Devadatta and Ajasattu.
It is very clear that Buddhism does not support killing your father. It does not support killing at all, or asking others to kill. It does not support seeking to destroy people groups, making people slaves, or selling those slaves. Etc. etc.
But people have done that since the start. Ajasattu completely misunderstood his last dialog with the buddha, and took it for military advice, fomenting discord in his “enemies” and commanding more slaughter, likely lengthening his stay in hell.
Since then, all the way to today, Buddhism and Theravada have survived only by the truly wise skillfully interacting with those who misunderstand and twist the religion, with the most common bad ideology having been that of militaristic and authoritarian kingship.
Now, if you take every legend literally and as if it were an anime, you may wonder, “why didn’t the Buddha breathe fire and subdue the armies of the world, like he subdued the naga in the caves? Or why didn’t Mahamoggalana make the palaces of the mighty kings shake, like he did to the palaces of the gods? Why didn’t all of the Arhants of the past use iddhi to subdue evil and enforce virtue” And while it’s a silly thought, I think it dramatizes an important point - that those outwardly aggressive approaches are unskillful. Na hi verena verani. The buddha, having the choice of many different approaches, and being the supreme teacher, chose a specific path.
What the Buddha did was go up to a man he knew was a parricide and warmonger condemned to hell, and just teach straight dhamma like DN2.
Extreme right-wing movements (using the historical lens where we can use early parliaments to place monarchism as right-wing) have taken the natural human reaction of amygdala hijack, us-vs-them thinking, and ad hominem to the extreme. For anyone on any issue, “debunking” is a dangerous game (imagine if someone came up to you and said, “your favorite cookbook is trash, let me tell you how it’s making your muffins bad”) but this is doubly true for the extreme right-wing, who are every moment just waiting to place more people in the “them” category to dismiss, destroy, and exploit.
But it’s hard to get angry at someone who isn’t placing themselves in the context of your prejudice, and simply says the straight truth. For millennia, Buddhist monks have been standing next to monarchists, saying, “killing is bad, etc.” A radical message that undermines everything evil in that ideology. And they get invited to do so, and receive gifts afterwards, because they do not present themselves as anti-monarchists opposed to the monarchists, but rather as good Buddhists encouraging other Buddhists to be better.
I don’t know Julius’s specific points, I can only guess from context, but I think again that DN2 is likely a great example of a good teaching to espouse rightly.
If a fascist hears, “your race-based hierarchy is wrong because…” they have the perception, “what I’m about to hear are the twisted lies of the under-people trying to poison the superior race and forestall the destruction of their own inferior kind. What they say is just another punch in the exchange of blows between groups. If they tried to shoot me with a gun, I would respond by shooting back - just so, I will answer their rhetoric with rhetoric, seeking victory not understanding.”
If a Buddhist hears, “A khattiya king, descended from the solar dynasty, would bow before his former slave if that slave left his household, ordained, trained in the Dhamma, and returned on alms round” he perceives it as dhamma and lends his ear.
What a Buddhist fascist hears depends on the approach of the person speaking to them.
Now that doesn’t mean that the second approach always works. There’s two and a half millennia of atrocities committed by Buddhists to demonstrate that. If someone is determined to be bad, they can continue to be bad even when exposed to good. But the “debunking” approach also fails against those people.
I think we have that guy - his name is Ajahn Brahm, and he releases an hour long video ~ every week which is great for the current algorithm. I’m not particularly up-to-date on YouTube nazi buddhists, but I think that at 169K subs he’s probably larger than all of them already.
N = 1 here, but the BSWA Youtube channel is probably the single largest influence on “radicalizing” me in the direction of Yoniso-Manisankara. Even though the team isn’t the smoothest on YouTube (technical difficulties abound) I think they deserve credit for being quite effective.
Of course I don’t mean this to discourage your suggestion. The more people speak good dhamma, the better imo.
Many thanks, Bhante!
@SDC Wow what a wisdom sir! Hats off to your understanding Julius evola and then explaining ways to destroy such thinking! You are absolutely right, he seems to value expanding ‘worldliness’ instead of the goal which is liberation. I understood him the moment I read first 2 chapters and immediately agreed to him because it emphasized expanding worldliness which is very alluring to any newcomer to dhamma(specially many westerners who find it very hard to think beyond materialism) because in 99 percent of cases noone wishes or aims for liberation until and unless they experience truth of suffering which moves their very core. But then I asked for explanation here and changed/corrected my wrong understanding.
Yes Julius evola is person who understood the possibilities which dhamma offers, we can use it to become whatever we wish, can experience every kind of bliss, or something like that, but in the process felt in love with the process and forgot the goal which is liberation from all of this. He couldn’t understand simple thing that, having all the marks of great being and having achieved perfection, lord buddha taught the liberation! Even though he could be ruler of great Empire, universal monarch, he valued liberation over all the other(worldly) things! We can only understand the true value of liberation when we taste it for ourselves till then we will naturally value worldly pleasures. It seems to me the case of clinging to the beauty and possibilities of finger which is actually pointing to the moon(true happiness of liberation)…or something like that.
To refute that thinking, yes we can point out that, understanding like this destroys/ignores the very goal of all this teachings. As however great/expanded worldliness might be, it will end one day, impermanence is the ultimate truth of all of it. Forgetting impermanence is forgetting the goal of liberation. But I think it requires the wisdom from (meditative)experience and just intellectual understanding won’t be enough, it will result in refined arguments only(I have a good experience of this).
For me atleast I think most people of our time, unlike from Lord Buddha’s time, do not value the meditation but value intellectual understanding only. Maybe that’s why its hard to come up with perfect counters against such thinking, which will not only defeat it but change it to the correct thinking. Hence even though being able to understand for ourselves, not all of us can perfectly destroy and change such wrong views of others.
Marvellous sir you pointed it out very well, superbly explained!
I’m glad my post was helpful and that you understood it in a similar way!
Have no comments, just wanted to say thanks for sharing our article, Bhante!