Deeds that are bright vs deeds that are neither dark nor bright

“Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: “weighs,” “compares”). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.”

These stages constitute the energy process in the “active” group (SN 46.53) of the seven factors of awakening- investigation, energy, joy.

1 Like

Investigation or Dhammavicaya belongs to which group?

1 Like

One minor correction: I assume here you mean sotāpanna-magga, not phala right? Of course, magga happens shortly before phala so it’s a rather nit-picky difference, but technically speaking, during that interval the now-noble but not-yet-stream-enterer trainee is indeed on the supramundane path. Is my understanding correct, Bhante? :pray:

1 Like

Thankyou Bhante. This is my problem I think.

What I’m hearing in the suttas is that bright actions bring about bright results. What I’m not hearing (yet) is where/how bright actions flip the puthujjana into sotapanna. That would be something like bright actions with neither dark nor bright results, I think? Maybe?

It is maybe there in AN 7.52 in that example of doing a deed

thinking, ‘This is an adornment and requisite for the mind’,

Maybe that’s where the (pre-sotapanna) training takes you, but you would’ve thought that it would be made more explicit in the suttas?

But on second thoughts (although maybe I’m on fourth or fifth thoughts now :wink: ), maybe that last type of gift giving in AN 7.52 is a gift given by a sotapanna? When we look at the preceding ways of giving a gift in the sutta they revolve around I, me and mine.

If a puthujjana really can’t do the eightfold path, then how is it possible to live the holy life?

But then again, spiritual friendship is the whole of the holy life, so perhaps it’s the spiritual friend that does all the heavy lifting. When I think that way though, I can’t help feeling a little bit Christian. :laughing:

Many, many thanks for this question Bhante.

1 Like

I tend to disregard the commentarial idea of magga and phala happening one immediately after the other. No such distinction seems to exist in the suttas. What we do have in the suttas, however, is the classification into eight noble beings, that is, the four pairs. For the stage of streamentry, the relevant pair would be the person who has attained the fruit of streamentry and the person who is practising for the attainment of the fruit of streamentry (sotāpattiphalasacchikririyāya paṭipanno, equivalent to the saddhānusārī and the dhammānusārī). In contrast to what the commentaries say, this latter person quite clearly exists in an ordinary sense, because they can be given gifts, etc. From this I deduce that all the eight ariyas are people who exists for an extended period of time.

It could be that the commentaries are referring to something else. If so, it is not mentioned in the suttas, and so I do not regard it as practically significant.

Your question still remains: at what point, exactly, does one internalise the noble eightfold path? In the Sotāpatti-saṃyutta we find the following:

“Sotāpanno, sotāpanno’ti hidaṃ, sāriputta, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, sāriputta, sotāpanno”ti?
“Yo hi, bhante, iminā ariyena aṭṭhaṅgikena maggena samannāgato ayaṃ vuccati sotāpanno, svāyaṃ āyasmā evaṃnāmo evaṅgotto”ti.

“Sāriputta, they speak of ‘a stream-enterer’. What is a stream-enterer?”
“Sir, anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

So it seems clear enough that a streamenterer has internalised the eightfold path. I don’t know of any equivalent statement for the person practising to attain the fruit. At the same time, it seems clear enough that the “path attainer” - to use the commentarial terminology - must be very close the same “possession”. For instance, it is said that the path attainer is bound to attain the fruit before they die. In practice the difference is likely to be minimal.

OK, I see what you mean. Let’s start with samādhi. When you come out of samādhi, you direct the mind to insight. Your mind is entirely pure at this point, so that any action you do is technically bright. But you are not trying to make good kamma; what you are trying to do is to see the nature of the mind. There comes a point when the bright mind sees reality deeply enough to flip over and reject existence. At the same time you see that this happens through a natural process of cessation. It is at this point you start making neither dark nor bright kamma with neither dark nor bright results.

I think it may be useful to distinguish between two different aspects of mind. One is the making of kamma, the other the pursuit of insight. They are linked, but do not determine each other (condition yes, but not determine). So it is possible to have a mind which makes good kamma and simultaneously achieves insight into the mind. At a certain point the insight is so deep that the mind stops making good kamma and makes the neither dark nor bright kamma instead.

Something like that.

Precisely. Others may be close, but not quite there.

It’s not so much that they don’t practice it, but that it’s a bit haphazard. In other words, you don’t always succeed. Also, the streamenterer practices the whole path, but most people practice only a certain number of factors.

I hope I am not pushing you towards Christianity! That’s a scary thought. I might get the sack. :worried:

9 Likes

Agreed :100:

Ah ha! Thank you so much for that quote Bhante! :pray: I stand corrected

Indeed, this is what I was referring to. Thank you for clearing up the terminology, Ajahn. :grin::nerd_face::pray:

Thanks for your pointed questions. I hadn’t thought about this so deeply before, but now that you mention it I think this is a serious issue.

After thinking more about this, I’m coming to think that these four kinds of karma represent the axes of a continuous (2D) space rather than rigidly separate categories.

For example, it’s already clear (to me, at least!) that there can be darker or brighter mixed karma. It seems equally clear that even most very dark karma has some altruistic motive somewhere in it and most very bright acts have some e.g. ego latent inside. So why not also view the neither-bright-nor-dark “category” similarly: as the opposite of both-bright-and-dark karma:

Let’s illustrate this with some examples:

  1. the culmination of the N8P would be the leftmost corner, leading to nibbāna
  2. the heart’s liberation through loving-kindness would be at the top, leading to the Brahma realm
  3. torturing and killing your parents just for the fun of it would be at the bottom, leading to hell
  4. and… :thinking: perhaps starting a war of defense against an aggressive nation to defend a weaker ally would be an example of something on the far right? Perhaps leading to the mara or titan realms?

It strikes me that most of our actions lie somewhere between these extremes. If we do something good to advance our career, that’s probably a little above and the right of center. If we are mean to someone so that they’ll leave us alone and let us meditate in peace, perhaps that’s a little below and to the left of center.

So, it’s interesting for me to think about “self-effacing” vs “ambitious” karma as being orthogonal to the usual “bright” vs “dark” axis.

What do others think of this model?

5 Likes

The more I reflect on this explanation the better it gets. Usually I would argue that a ‘trying to do’ or a ‘pursuit’ of any kind is making kamma. But in this case it is clearly separate - possibly the ‘pursuit of insight’ is a result that you do not build upon? Anyway, at that point in the proceedings there’s clearly no one doing nothing, and yet it is still being done. Brilliant. Thank you Bhante.

When they find out it’s me, you’ll probably get a promotion :wink:

Yes. I’m not known for my subtlety. I should maybe start all of my posts with an apology Bhante :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

White for bright
Black for dark
Shades of grey for mixed
All the colours of the :rainbow: for neither maybe?

I’m not sure that I’m going to get that peaceful meditation if I’ve been mean to someone without making up with them first? I’m not sure that I can quite see this bottom left quadrant at the moment.

2 Likes

The commentaries don’t actually deny that the sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno can be given gifts. It’s just that the donor would have to be exceedingly quick about it.

In fact the commentarial conception might make for a fun computer game of the “whack-a-mole” variety. Each player would be equipped with bags of boiled rice and there’d be animated bhikkhus randomly popping up out of holes, each representing a sotāpatti path-attainer. Their appearance would be accompanied by some suitably onomatopoeic sound like “Boing!” or “Pow!” and the players’ task would be to chuck a bag of rice in each bhikkhu’s almsbowl during the split second before he turns into a fully-fledged sotāpanna.

whackamoles

10 Likes