Dependent co-arising 1-4?

The Watercooler
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“Including some modern idealist kind of ideas (“the world is all in your mind”), which aren’t in line with the Buddha’s, as I see it.”

May I ask how you understand the Loka and Sabba Suttas, (SN 12.44 and SN 35.23)?

While an external world or reality is not denied (beings can experience sicknesses and weather conditions not due to kamma, as we know), the arena of practice appears to be in the citta.
This comes close to a phenomenological view, does it not?

What else can beings practice and work with beyond what appears and is experienced in the citta?

Of course this is not to objectify the mind… :slightly_smiling_face:

Respectfully curious about your view on this :pray:

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Dependent Origination has been my primary focus ever since I started to take an active interest in Buddhism although I was born to Buddhist parents.
I was never able to get my head around the apparently widely accepted three life interpretation or the one that describes it as a momentary arising and a ceasing.
As such, I have assembled a document which in my humble opinion avoids all the drawbacks. I will eventually publish it for free distribution.
If anyone is interested in reading some original ideas which are based entirely on the discourses and offer constructive criticism, please PM me.
I am not trying to promote anything. If you have been trying to piece together what DO is all about and always get stuck, then you will be benefited by reading it. It is about 240 pages (8’ x 12’) because I cannot explain just the twelve links without getting into detail about everything that contributes to the twelve links.
If you PM me I will gladly e mail the PDF document.
With Metta

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Hi. I was browsing the Visuddhimagga, which reminded me of your past post. It says, the same as I suggested:

“So, bhikkhus, that herein which is reality, not unreality, not otherness, specific conditionality: that is called dependent origination” (S II 25f.). Consequently, it should be understood that dependent origination has the characteristic of being the conditions for the states beginning with ageing-and-death. Its function is to continue [the process of] suffering. It is manifested as the wrong path.

Page 534

As I previously posted, the only tradition, so far, I have read that calls the Path to Nibbana in SN 12.23 “dependent origination” is the Buddhadasa tradition.

Regards :dizzy:

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Hi Carl,

It seems you may have missed what I was trying to emphasize earlier, but I am content to leave it where it is for now. Perhaps we can pick it up another time.

By any chance, have we ever conversed on other forums? Something familiar in these discussions. No pressure if you don’t want to say so.

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Thank you but for me the above is unnecessary. Again, it does not seem related to any salient “tradition” but Bhikkhu Bodhi seemed to take up the idiosyncrasies of a commentary, seeming to say “becoming” is related to Nibbana:

… the Nettipakarana, a Pali exegetical treatise, has called the second application “transcendental dependent arising” (lokuttara-paticcasamuppada).

When this law of inter-connected becoming, of conditionality and relatedness, is extracted from its usual exemplifications and explored for further doctrinal bearings, it can be found to have other ramifications equally relevant to the realization of the teaching’s fundamental aim.

Transcendental Dependent Arising
A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta
by Bhikkhu Bodhi

In the article above, Bhikkhu Bodhi also classifies the twelve-condition doctrine as “mundane”, which seems contrary to the Suttas but consistent with the Nettipakarana, which says:

“Viññāṇe ce, bhikkhave, āhāre sati nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti, nāmarūpassa avakkantiyā sati punabbhavo hoti, punabbhave sati jāti hoti, jātiyā sati jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti. Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, mahārukkho, tassa yāni ceva mūlāni adhogamāni yāni ca tiriyaṅgamāni, sabbāni tāni uddhaṁ ojaṁ abhiharanti. Evaṁ hi so, bhikkhave, mahārukkho tadāhāro tadupādāno ciraṁ dīghamaddhānaṁ tiṭṭheyya. Evameva kho, bhikkhave, viññāṇe āhāre sati nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti sabbaṁ …pe… evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hotī”ti. Idaṁ lokiyaṁ (this is mundane/worldly).

SuttaCentral

Bhikkhu Bodhi seemed to miss the Abhidhamma Vibhanga also seems to refers to a lokuttara-paticcasamuppada, below:

Having done, having developed that same good supramundane jhāna, he, aloof from sense pleasures,* attains and dwells in resultant first jhāna that is hard practice, knowledge slowly acquired and is empty; at that time because of good roots there is activity; because of activity there is consciousness; because of consciousness there is mind; because of mind there is the sixth base; because of the sixth base there is contact; because of contact there is feeling; because of feeling there is faith; because of faith there is decision; because of decision there is becoming; because of becoming there is birth; because of birth there is ageing and death. Thus is the arising of these states.

SuttaCentral

It follows the “tradition” you unquantifiably spoke about seems to be an Abhidhamma related tradition. :slightly_smiling_face:

The Nettipakaraṇa (Pali, also called Nettippakarana , abbreviated Netti ) is a mythological Buddhist scripture, sometimes included in the Khuddaka Nikaya of Theravada Buddhism’s Pali Canon. The main theme of this text is Buddhist Hermeneutics through a systematization of the Buddha’s teachings. It is regarded as canonical by the Burmese Theravada tradition, but isn’t included in other Theravada canons. Wikipedia

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The Visuddhimagga’s section on Dependent Origination addresses this quite well IMO.

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While the above is clear, nama-rupa must also be present in the absence of the embryo or new body, during the stream of consciousness after death (viññana-sotam), no?
Otherwise, how could there be consciousness?

I explored this topic with a Venerable recently and am continuing to clarify my understand – hence this post. :slightly_smiling_face:

:pray: