Thanks for the helping hand there, @gnlaera.
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What if your own heart is the one size that fits all?
What an excellent teaching in that video!
In this thread, one might notice some things. (Or perhaps i am projecting; that’s ok lol as an ordinary person and laywoman, i get to do that lol) So what might be noticed?
Mental illness or suffering is stigmatized. But it is natural, too, in fact sometimes the healthiest response possible in human life. (In fact, suffering and “simple” mental pain can kill you, or those around you, or both. May all beings attain peace.)
Western ideas are stigmatized. And that’s ok, that too sometimes is the most healthy response a human can have! (But in the East, half the human species is denied by some Buddhist authorities as so flawed and dangerous, they cannot be ordained, or touched, or taken seriously as Daughters of the Buddha… and the other half uses prostitution, denigration, sexual violence, relationship violence, to try to stop this from EVER changing. How can Buddhists be ok with this? Don’t they understand kamma?)
Please breath. I try to speak with metta, respectfully, but there are things we should be able to examine together, for the benefit of many beings including ourselves.
Other things one might notice: the idea that one needs to either not have much mental suffering before beginning meditation, or that there is actually Us and Others. The Buddha decided to proclaim the Dhamma because there were some with little dust in their eyes… in a dusty land, the best cleanser for eyes is tears. He taught everyone where they each were, and his first converts were naked ascetics who had been practicing extreme practices; people who knew pain. Discomfort. Alienation. Suffering recognized as suffering.
It is my opinion that medication and or therapy and or cognitive behavioral techniques can have huge effects for people. And some of the techniques with varying complications might be positive. And techniques being worldly as is most of what people “know” or experience is impermanent over time. Drug resistance can develop, effective blood levels of medications are not instant or complication free, individual vehicles can vary, etc.
So … kindness. Can help everyone who gives or receives it. Kindness cannot be wasted. What a great renewable resource!
May each and everyone of us enjoy peace, health, generosity, kindness, and ultimately liberation.
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So to add- Buddhism does work. Maybe not at the level we are all practicing at. Its the ending of suffering, but understandably if something physical in the brain is pumping neurotransmitters which is making people feel depressed, it maybe hard to remove that feeling altogether while still being alive. However Buddhism does offer the solution that it will never repeat itself, as karmic patterns do, again in the next life. Now I know this may not seem relevant to those who don’t believe in rebirth (or kamma), but we could safely say 95% of the mental pain can be managed in this life, and perhaps only 5% might remain, and that, only if genetically prone to low mood. That 5% maybe further reuduced to say 2% if antidepressants, which can work, are taken into consideration.
Low mood can lead to negative thoughts, low motivation, isolation, non-comunicativeness etc which has a negative impact on one’s life, and that in turn leads to further low mood- it becomes a vicious cycle. A lot of that can be reversed; we know that medication and therapy (read Buddhism) can work together better than either one alone (or medication+therapy+Buddhism, if you like). Alcohol and recreational substances sometimes used as a coping mechanism can lead to furthering of low moods the next day. The fifth precept is helpful with this. Performing unwholesome actions can lead to guilt, and the latter is a symptom of depression. Avoiding actions which cause guilt/remorse is a helpful path to follow regardless and especially if prone to low mood. The meditation of developing saddha or faith in the Buddha, dhamma, sangha can be helpful, in a psychological sense of generating positive and wholesome mental states. There is a sutta which I cant find right now on this. The divine abodes are very helpful. Watching impermanence is not a good idea when feeling low …obviously. The Cook sutta talks of how one must know which meditation to use when in what state of mind. So choose wisely! Don’t meditate on the foul nature of the body for example…! Impermanence is helpful in knowing that this depressed feeling is going to end- just as right view, but not as a meditation. Suicide often happens when it feels there is no way out and people feel trapped. If it is possible to access that thought ‘this too shall come to an end’ and be able to recall even remotely the times when things were better, there would be a way forward. Being reflective of one’s lifestyle and choices would be helpful in noting when things aren’t going well and seeing if anything needs changing, before crises and calamities happen. Reducing ones defilements means the world has less control over your inner emotions, which would then be less likely to get triggered- being able to better weather the 8 worldly winds. Having a smaller or no sense of self would mean that one is able to not be moved by ‘things thrown’ at ‘you’. Also if there is right view about aggregates etc, it would be possible to access a different viewpoint about the drama in the room. One which completely diffuses the tension, if done well.
with metta
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It would depend on what is in one’s heart, I suppose.
I believe in the power of a clean heart, and it contains nothing at all the way I feel for it, it just listen’s and beats silently far far away …
And that is very good, because if this purity was up for grabs, we all be totally lost without any possible refuge
I once had a doctor tell me “you don’t have a headache”. Oh boy.
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Much good in your post Mat, but in particular I love the one quoted above, and have witnessed and experienced many benefits from this.
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[@Mat - I think we have had a similar exchange before but I think it bears repeating. ]
By implication then would you take that as a recommendation to avoid meditating in certain situations?
My practice is to take highly troubling and persistent thoughts while meditating as a sign to end that particular session and get some physical exercise. Unfortunately I had to “discover” that practice mostly on my own.
I have experience meditating with depression.
My practice now is:
- I give myself full permission to end any session of meditation when assailed by violent thoughts that wouldn’t diminish under the practices that I knew.
Stopping, standing up and getting some brisk exercise was my medicine. - When the situation above became a regular pattern I sought qualified help. In some cases talking out the troubling issue. At one point it meant medication and CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy).
I still keep a 30 day supply of my medication on hand. Haven’t taken any in years but it gives me some peace of mind to know I can start anytime. (It can take 30 days or more to them to kick in.)
I too was medication adverse – especially at first. Today I consider that adversion rather silly – and partly a matter of pride and avoidance.
In my opinion, something similar should be taught – in explicit words – to all beginning mediators.
To the extent that Buddhism teaches us to pay attention to our own mind and something about the virtues of being an island to ourselves about some things – then I would say that Buddhism and meditation still work just fine.
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My take is to let mind and body cooperate like “best friends” - so when mind is depressed or dull, I concentrate on body moving in daily chores, - and by putting all the attention on each task at hand and solving them meticulously and with as much bodily ease as possible, they shine through the dullness and becomes spiritualized movements in the mind, and the mind becomes interested without thinking. And vice versa when the body lacks interest in what the mind is about to do.
All this for keeping a firm and friendly hold on the thread in lay life and develop practice without external support, and become a lamp on to oneself …
Hope this make any sense for somebody, and if not, scroll scroll scroll! 
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Good point here about taking some exercise. When I suffered from serious depression years ago there was no way I could have sat and meditated.
These days I always find that a walk by the sea is of benefit - also an opportunity to practice mindfulness!
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Yes, I think it is best to stop thinking when depressed as they are likely to be negative thoughts. Be mindful without thought or even better focus on something pleasurable- or mastery activities, that is activities that aren’t pleasurable in themselves but feel better for having done them (pay off the bills, for example). Exercise has been definitely shown to be useful- even just going for a walk. Most things that take you out of the house is going to useful.
with metta
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“Just as the great ocean has one taste, the taste of salt, so also this teaching and discipline has one taste, the taste of liberation.” The Buddha
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Matt,
I would like to agree with you, but I can’t.
I’ve talked with many people on anti-depressants. I’ve talked with many people who have the authority to prescribe them.
Finding the right anti-depressant is a trial and error process.
Many people are on these drugs, there is no shortage of people to ask. Often people try one or two out that make their symptoms worse or that bring on intolerable side effects. Usually after suffering through a trial and error process they find the right drug and the right dose.
It is a trial and error process.
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But it nevertheless is.
I went through something close to that.
A few summers back my father, my last parent, died. I also had a relationship come to a slow and toxic end at the same time. Add on work stress. I had panic attacks. Often I would wake up in the night and would need to go walk until exhausted to calm down. I had them in other situations too.
Over time it improved, though I will occasionally lose sleep for several contiguous days when life gets stressful.
That experience is why I posted the Lion Roar’s article. I too got very little help from the online Buddhist communitie and teachings. I got a lot of patent answers.
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Good quote, saving a copy.
I can’t say I agree.
People turned to religion to make themselves feel “better”, if only less scared at the unknown by having the unknown explained by myth.
The ultimate test for anything, a very fair test, is “does it work?”.
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Saving for later, thank you.
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