Apart from that I had my own hallucinogenic experiences some 20 years ago and have very mixed feelings about them. Yes, I got some insights of emptiness and that generally the brain/mind is able to do much more than we usually assume. So in that very indirect way it was a good experience for meditation.
But every drug comes with its price, and the price can be quite high depending on drug, personality, and frequency. Even meditation comes with its ‘price’, just remember how difficult it is to relate to ‘normal’ people, materialistic life etc. - we become outsiders of society. Not in a bad way, after all we just get dispassionate about stupid things. But it can be a lonely life nonetheless.
Would I do drugs if they had no side effects? hm, maybe. But they do have side effects. And by now I can’t even stand the idea of alcohol, or even fire crackers, let alone mushrooms etc.
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Compiled from more than four hundred hours of channeling by Barbara Marciniak, Bringers of the Dawn imparts to us the wisdom of the Pleiadians, a group of enlightened beings who have come to Earth to help us discover how to reach a new stage of evolution. Master storytellers and humorists, they advise us to become media-free, to work in teams, and to eliminate the words “should” and “try” from our vocabularies. We learn how to go beyond fear, how the original human was a magnificent being with twelve strands of DNA and twelve chakra centers, and who our “gods” are. Startling, intense, intelligent, and controversial, these teachings offer essential reading for anyone questioning their existence on this planet and the direction of our collective conscious — and unconscious. By remembering that we are Family of Light, that we share an ancient ancestry with the universe around us, we become “bringers of the dawn,” consciously creating a new reality, a new Earth. "An underground sensation." — Publisher’s Weekly
Of course, we are interested primarily here with EBTs - but I have to say, I Love the Dalai Lama. I think he is a beautiful person and he offers some beautiful and simple thoughts on this topic…
Regardless of whether psychedelics have any place in buddhism, I still think the reports from DMT research is extremely interesting. It’s a very unique molecule, and is actually endogenous in the human brain. People say it feels like they’re gone for months and it’s only about 3-5 minutes. They meet these beings of light, and different archetypes that many independently experience, and the very detailed and distinctive descriptions of them often match what many people independently report without ever talking to eachother or reading about it. There have even been reports of people saying the beings told them something personal that they didn’t know before about a friend who saw the same being and had talked about that personal thing. I don’t know, it’s interesting to me.
I read that article on levitation by Analayo, and he says that all the powers and celestial travels that the buddha and other monks had were using the mind-made body, so essentially it was all within the mind, as if they found a way, in deep concentrative states, to actually connect their mind with those other realms so they could travel within them. Analayo states that they were always while physically sitting cross legged in meditation. So, it seems to me that they could somehow tune their mind to the point where that is possible. A lot of people while have those DMT experiences are so overwhelmed that they can’t really remember everything that happens in those other realms, it’s more like a ultra vivid dream. But if you accessed these realms while in 4th jhana, you’d be so stable that you have no problem being present and totally mindful so you can remember the vivid dream-like realms.
Let me clear though, I’m not saying that DMT allows you do this, it’s just an interesting thought. The strange thing is that it isn’t like other psychedelics where your mind can be very, I don’t know, psychedelic-esque. With DMT your mind is totally the same, you’re totally with it, your just being “transported” to these dream-like realms where you talk to these beings. Hey, all I’m saying is that people are always looking for evidence of these other realms and rebirth, and it’s often similar in substantiality. It just shouldn’t be dismissed outright. Who knows, it could allow you to tune your mind with other realms in the same way meditation can, but it just doesn’t allow for real and worthwhile exploration because you don’t have the stability and peace as you do when you do it with meditation. It’s only a tentative theory, and barely that, that’s all. It’s just interesting.
Over the course of time, this forum has assumed a strict approach to controversial topics such as suicide. I believe it is worth considering defining some boundaries on the topic of illegal drugs and psychodelics such as DMT.
A key concern I have when I see posts like the above is that it opens space for people to wrongly associate the topic of EBTs with the experimentation of substances not only illegal but not yet fully understood in terms of long term effects to human mind and body.
Note as well that drug dealers, who may sometimes not be dealing exactly what they say the deal, could easily point to this post in this forum and say “Look even Buddhists like this thing! Pay me my price and you can have it!”. And we know that in the position they usually find themselves it is pretty easy to steal a lot from naive people and in return give them something half baked and super harmful to their brains and well-being.
@Aminah, @Cara could you please advise of the moderation team is working on it?
Well I can certainly add “I am not encouraging drug use,” but the only reason I talked about it here is because I thought The Watercooler was for random topics, not necessarily to do with the Dhamma or the EBTs. Also, this isn’t about drug use, this is about the effect a chemical compound has on the human brain. That’s why I kept the discussion as objective as I could. The fact is, a lot of scientific research has been done on these psychedelic substances, and it’s actually becoming more and more common in the scientific world. If these things can’t even be talked about in a place meant for any type of discussion, then where can it? This is akin to teaching abstinence instead of sex education, it’s just gonna cause more unwanted pregnancy in the long run. You’re far better off speaking the truth about these matters and allowing people to make their own decisions. It’s not like this was a one sided conversation, plenty of people made perfectly good arguments for not even touching these substances with a ten foot pole. Besides, I’m pretty sure we are all self-aware individuals here. Regardless though, I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else.
No worries. It is more an open question than anything. The concern I have about things like DMT is that it is not something someone can just plant in their garden like marijuana or mushrooms (albeit still at the risk of being committing a depending on where they live or dealing with poison depending on the type of mushroom by the way!) and experiment with.
If one really wants to try DMT he or she will have to source it from trustworthy and controlled sources and try it in very controlled circumstances.
I have over the years seen close, dear and brilliant minds lost to illegal substances. Almost always the harm comes not only from the substance per se but as well from the fact those individuals were in fact using very impure and sketchy versions of such things.
If instead we were discussing here the participation in controlled experiments in serious research conditions and within trustworthy institutions then maybe we would be having a conversation worth of this forum’s Watercooler.
Just FYI, we recently changed the idea of the Watercooler of rather being about “anything”, to being a place to talk about or post light-hearted topics.
Please keep this “light-hearted content” guideline in mind as you post topics and comments in the Watercooler.
The reason we ask this is because all the moderators here work entirely voluntarily, have a lot of other outside work, and therefore not much time. This helps us to moderate this forum more effectively.
I haven’t followed this topic closely, but it could be helpful for participants to check over the guidelines again -
If you feel there are specific posts that directly go against our guidelines, flagging is the best way to bring them to our attention.
I totally understand what you’re saying and let me as clear as I can be, I am not suggesting someone seek these substances out because of what they have read here. You’re right in that there is always some kind of risk, whether it’s something more unusual like a fatality from a sketchy dealer, or something which can be more common like a bad trip. This really wasn’t meant to convince anyone to try this, and even if someone directly asked me if they should, I would have to know them pretty well to even answer. As far as talking about studies, there are quite a few studies on all different types of these substances, and yeah maybe it would be better to speak of those instead of anecdotes and theories, but to be fair, even when it comes to these studies, it’s still relies on the reports of those who took it. I am only interested in the mind states produced by these substances and how interesting they can be, definitely not with promoting them in any way. The argument against them has been well presented here, and although I don’t necessarily agree with it, the information on both sides is out for consumption. I really think banning the topic is a step too far and counter productive to the whole buddhist ideal. The discussion was jagged at times, but still both sides spoke with the intention of seeking out the truth and, I think at the bottom of it all, with compassion for others in mind.
Sure.
Now let me offer a perspective.
To me, through exposing the four noble truths the Buddha offered a comprehensive guideline on how to deal with life having as aim the end of stress and suffering:
There are things in this life that need to be understood
There are things in this life that are to be abandoned
There are things in this life that are to be verified
There are things in this life that are to be developed
From the perspective of the first axiom one is to understand the suffering and stress that will always come with any experience in which delusion, anger and desire is present.
From the perspective of the second axiom, one is to understand that some choices are to be made towards abandoning whatever refuels this very threefold unwholesome root.
From the perspective of the third axiom one is invited to see for himself how by acting upon the two axioms above one will naturally experience for oneself a gradual but certain abandonment, ceasing or extinguishing of any stress and suffering.
From the perspective of the fourth axiom one gets a clear guideline of what is to be done, pursued, developed and cultivated for the gradual but steady and certain abandonment of stress and suffering.
All that said, given that I trust Buddha’s boundless compassion and wisdom, I take the fact that the earliest and probably most accurate rendition of his teachings (i.e. EBTs) are very precise in placing intoxicants in the basket of things to be abandoned as the basis for the understanding that there is no way I can justify myself experimenting with whatever substance recently found by mankind as a way to short-circuit or cut short the gradual path to awakening the Buddha so well pursued himself and encouraged us to pursue ourselves.
It’s still out for consumption because we’re all discussing the topic from inside our warm cozy room sipping hot chocolate. May I ask have you ever served in the military? If you have then you’d already know there’s only one simple answer when death comes staring straight at your face. Imagine you’re a soldier de-mining in the middle of a field full of mines and IEDs. Still unsure about whether to take psychedelic or not? If you are then odds are that you will come home in a coffin. Actually in this case there’d be no need for the whole coffin. It’d be lucky if they could collect enough of what’s left of you to put in a tiny box to send home to your family. A serious Buddhist practitioner is not that much different from a soldier out on the battle field. They have to maintain utmost attention and focus for they know death, destruction, and suffering can sneak up on them at any moment and any time.
Jimisommer, I believe this sort of comment is has people feeling is supportive of drug use. On one hand you discourage the use of drugs at length, then make comments which encourage/advocate their use. Very confusing.
Drugs are a sensitive subject-- understandably so–they lead to great harm, suffering and death for a great many people. I believe it is very important to use right speech if one must discuss these matters. Just my 2 cents, but sometimes its best to remain silent if ones words are causing confusion or divisiveness, even if that isn’t your intent.
I’ve never encouraged their use, I’ve only talked about their potential effect on practice, and their place in the medical world. There are a ton of studies showing the benefits of these substances for certain situations. These are substances just like any other, sometimes they can be abused, sometimes they can be used for great benefit. Opioids are causing big problems these days, and yet they also allow people with cancer to get through their treatment without it being pure torture. There is no hard and fast line with this stuff, and regarding buddhist practice and the way in which psychedelics are well known for directing people toward spirituality and buddhism in particular, the conversation is worth having. It is one thing for people to just talk about drug use, that’s obviously ridiculous; but this conversation, the entire time, has been centered around the uniqueness of the relationships between psychedelics and buddhism. Anyone can have an opinion about this, but a fact of the matter is that many buddhist were originally drawn to the practice because of these substances, and it is that concept that I’m interested in exploring, and have been throughout this discussion. There is no reason to fear this discusssion. There is certainly no reason to try and ban it. Who is to say that these really don’t allow someone’s mind to explore other realms. Many here are so sure that you are able to do this through meditation, and then they gawk at this, I think that’s unwise. I see so many things brought up as interesting anecdotes to why something more is out there, near death experiences and things like that. Did you know that they’ve found that during near death experiences your brain is liable to empty its reservoir of DMT? These are interesting concepts, and they do concern the EBTs, they concern the 5th precept, and they concern the possibility of being able to contact and experience other realms with your mind. Meditation may allow you to do this with much more stability, but it is still just a unique mind state allowing you to do this, and when there are substances out there that also put you in unique mind states that give you similar sounding experiences, how is that not worth talking about? This isn’t about encouraging drug use, it is about being able to have this conversation. You can have an intellectual conversation about these things without it being about “drugs.” You’re looking at this all too narrowly. This conversation is about chemical compounds that put the mind in certain unique states that often result in strange and often profound experiences, that have lead a lot of people to buddhism. This isn’t about trying to convince others to use them, and that’s been clear the entire time. You can talk about the possibility that these substances actually allow people to connect their minds with other realms, without encouraging their use. Why is it that when someone says they went to another realm through meditation you believe them, but when someone puts their mind in a similar, albeit less stable, state through a chemical compound, all of a sudden it’s not worth talking about. A conversation like this can easily go off the rails, but we are all intelligent people here who are all committed to studying the EBTs, so there is no reason why that would happen, and so far it hasn’t even gotten close. The topic in relation to buddhism and the EBTs has never been strayed from, so there really is no reason to worry. There is plenty of information for someone to make an informed decision, and there is no reason for you to make that decision for them or to deny them the ability to read about it all. This stuff is interesting, there is no reason to be so serious and strict about it. Yes, substances can cause problems sometimes, but conversations like this are definitely not the issue.
It would be an issue if people started thinking that taking drugs has anything to do with Buddhism - it doesn’t. The Buddha never encouraged it.
The only “connection” I can see seems to be that some people who have past experiences with psychedelic drugs have been attracted to Buddhism, and some drug experiences might seem to relate to things that could arguably be experienced through meditation.
But this is not unique to Buddhism at all - plenty of people who have used psychedelics are drawn to Hinduism, Mystic Christianity, Native American spirituality, etc…others might conclude that their experiences were created by purely physical processes in the brain and become hard line materialists.
I don’t think these kinds of discussions should be shut down - there are a lot of interesting themes to be discussed. But I think it would be a real shame if anyone read through something here and felt that non-medical drug use was somehow considered a legitimate part of Buddhist practice as found in the EBTs.
I’d be grateful for a reference to the sutta or a citation to commentary the passage above.
I am looking for places in the EBT that suggest parallels to modern notions of understanding and verification. At the same time in what ways might such modern notions mislead us while reading and interpreting the EBTs?
The summary I presented is based on the usual way the suttas refer to the four Noble truths’ specific ennobling tasks of
i) understanding suffering,
ii) abandoning/letting go of its causes,
iii) verifying for oneself its cessation and
iv) developing the path that results in that.
These notions are found in many sutras but special references would be SN56.11 and SN56.12
