Well wait a minute, now we’re talking about two different things. First there’s the experience of seeing these similar beings that many claim to see and speak to. There is no way to know if that’s real, although the same could be said for anyone that claims to see devas while meditating. So that’s one thing. As for the insights of the 3 characteristics and emptiness, well those are real no matter how they happen. And it’s not just trippy imagery and voices or mental sensations. In fact that rarely even happens to me. It’s more just a deep sense of these things, you don’t just know them intellectually, you experience them deeply and directly. So taking DMT and seeing and speaking to devas, who the hell knows. That was more just an interesting phenomenon regarding DMT. But the insights I and others have had, those are very real. I mean, if you experience impermanence, that can hardly be a delusion. I mean I guess it could be, but someone would have to be pretty delusional in the first place, regardless of any psychedelic use. I just don’t understand why people want this to be the case so badly, why they want to deny the possibility and potential of these substances. There are very intelligent, stable, and wise practitioners who use these occasionally and it helps, I’m not sure why people are so eager to reject someone else’s experiences. It’s the same as anything, if used foolishly and mindlessly, it’s going to have negative effects, and if used wisely and mindfully, it can be very beneficial.
Why do you need enhancements to see suffering and see impermanence? It’s blooming obvious with a little mediation and attention, and becomes more obvious the more you meditate. And insight into what is not-self grows along with the other insights. But meditation also cultivates the collected, unscattered, concentrated presence of mind to attend and let go. Do hallucinogens do that?
Forgive me for saying so, but haven’t you said before that you have had substance abuse problems? Have you ever thought that maybe you should just stop doing all these things? It seems like you are saying, “Well, before I had unwholesome crutches, but now I’m using wholesome crutches.” Right.
No one can say for sure, but I have my doubts. I have met a few monks who have impressed me as being highly realized, as they say. They are gentle, exquisitely composed in bodily comportment and speech, unflappable, and remarkably present - completely the opposite of a raving, scatterbrained, slurred speech hippie madmen from the psychedelic era, like Timothy Leary. But maybe the new drugs are better than the old drugs.
I agree that there are people like that, those hippie madmen, but that is not the type of people I’m talking about. They obviously over did it, and they obviously didn’t have the right idea about things in the first place, that makes a big difference. Also some people are just less grounds and stable, and this may not be right for them either. I’ll leave a link to the video of vanja palmers to show the difference. There is a difference between seeing those insights with a little meditation, and the way you see them with psychedelics. The difference in intensity and depth is quite large.
As for me personally, you’re absolutely right, and that’s why I’ve been clean for two years now. But, to be fair, just because I had problem with substances (opiates in particular), that doesn’t mean psychedelics are in the same class. My problem was that I didn’t want to face my mind, psychedelics, when used correctly, are hardly an escape. They were actually what caused me to realize that I needed to face it if I ever wanted to truly escape. Psychedelics are being used, and successfully, at helping addicts get sober and remain sober. Yeah, they may not be “sober” when using the psychedelics, but I would still say it’s very very different than other drugs. I admit there are some unusual people who actually become hooked on the psychedelic experience, but that is highly unusual, and clearly they’ve found a way to use them as an escape. But, meditation can be used as an escape as well, the jhanas and formless jhanas and such. It’s all about how it’s used. But yes, you’re right, I personally have a tricky history with drugs. That’s why I said before that I haven’t used psychedelics in a while and I don’t plan on it for a good while longer, if not for the rest of my life. But this doesn’t change the truth of the matter. It just means that it’s a different situation for me, as it is for everyone. I’ve kept stressing that some people find it extremely helpful and others don’t. You should know you’re tendencies before hand. I still stand by the fact that they can be used as tools.
Here is the link of vanja palmers:
The reason I object is not because I am interested in discrediting anyone else’s experience - it is because I think taking any kind of drugs is potentially very harmful (to health and sanity) and I don’t want other people to be inspired and encouraged by people going around claiming drugs are the shortcut to enlightenment. They aren’t - at best they are a sidetrack, at worst they are a fatal downfall.
If DMT gave you deep insights into the three characteristics (above and beyond what simply cultivating the N8FP would) then I guess Joe Rogan should be enlightened by now. But is he? I listened to a podcast where he said he met jokers or jester like beings who were giving him the bird, and this was like some kind of profound insight into the Universe. 
Nothing against the Rog, God bless him - but Might it be possible that some drugs just make you really feel like you’re gaining some profound wisdom? I think more often than not they do the exact opposite.
I agree with everything you’re saying except that at best it sidetracks you. I would say at best it can be used as an occasional tool in the practice and nothing more. It doesn’t lead to enlightenment. It just lets you understand things from a different angle that you normally can’t see things from. People that take them all the time, and especially people who aren’t taking them with the specific focus on their practice of the Dhamma, there not using it as a tool. It’s like throwing a hammer in the air and catching it as a game, instead of using it to drive a nail into a piece of wood, it’s ridiculous and can actually cause harm. Now when using it drive a nail into wood you can hurt yourself too, but not if you know what you’re doing, and it’s not nearly as bad, also the benefits outweigh the cost, again, for some people. Also, just a side note, I’m not necessarily talking about DMT here, most people who take psychedelics for this reason take psilocybin or LSD. The only reason I mentioned DMT in the first place is because there is this strange phenomenon where people independently see the same beings without any leading or discussion about them beforehand and it reminded me of devas.
So because people who take DMT have the same common hallucination or feeling that suggests somehow that experience is valid? (Or could it be that the drug activates certain neurotransmitters that have a similar effect?)
Most people who do methamphetamine see Shadow People. Are you going to tell me that means doing crank is a spiritual practice?
Sounds to me like you enjoy using hallucinogens and find them interesting. That’s fine. Totally up to you.
The only thing anybody is objecting to here, on Sutta Central, a Buddhist forum for those studying the EBTs, is that you are trying to connect hallucinogens with the EBT and it seems to me that it isn’t working. Maybe best to just leave it be.
I had a good friend in college my freshman year who was gentle, slightly withdrawn, a good student and well-liked, who started taking acid and two months later ended up in a mental hospital, after he became convinced that a pretty girl in one of his classes was communicating with him telepathically.
I approve of Brad Warner’s message:
http://hardcorezen.info/spiritual-teachers-stop-enabling-addicts/5497
Meaning no offence dharmacorps but this statement is highly speculative.
Can’t we all hold this a bit more lightly? You guys sound like my Dad back in the '60’s. I found that psychedelics helped me break out of the most confining world view of the US in the mid 1960’s - the horror! Which opened my mind to other possibilities and just that can actually help quite a bit.
But I haven’t done that in 40 years or so nor do I regret having done it. Since my time as a Buddhist practitioner, I have encountered non-physical beings, had out of body experiences (along with about 25% of the population according to one study I saw - though this was actually in Australia and maybe being at the bottom of the world they fall out more easily).
I knew a monk that saw devas and dead people and I have a friend that in her deep meditations is visited by recently dead asking for merit. And all these phenomena are I believe supported in the EBT’s.
I have no idea if these DMT experiences are ‘real’ or not - and challenge anyone to clearly define what ‘real’ means anyway. I suspect that they are experiences inspired by actual events - and the same goes for what most people would consider ‘reality’ as well.
I do believe in other realms and other beings - that isn’t the point. The point is that drugs ruin lives and Buddhism doesn’t.
Now that argument is just ridiculous. Some drugs have the potential to ruin lives. Clearly you’re stuck in an extreme view of this issue. You can say what you will, but I’d like to hope more buddhists will become a little more open and flexible about things.
Yes, thank you, and the DMT thing about seeing devas was really just an idea or theory, I don’t really think that’s how it is, I’m just saying who knows.
It wasn’t really meant as an argument - More of an opinion I guess? There was a time in my life that I would have reacted along the same lines as you to the views I’m expressing now. I might be turning into an old coot, but oh well! I fully understand that some people will experiment with some drugs and come out relatively unscathed. However, I know for a fact that this is not always true. I might be more open to what you’re saying if you could point out to me where the Buddha showed flexibility on these matters.
“Medical News Today” lists some potential DMT side effects:
Too much serotonin in the body can lead to symptoms such as:
agitation
confusion
high blood pressure
loss of muscle coordination
headache
At higher doses, DMT can cause seizures, respiratory arrest, and coma.
DMT could have serious adverse consequences for users with pre-existing psychological problems or a mental illness such as schizophrenia.
Due to limited research data, DMT is not known to cause physical dependence or addiction, although frequent recreational users may develop psychological cravings for the drug. The National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) suggest that, unlike other hallucinogens, DMT use does not seem to induce tolerance of the drug.
Although it is not considered an addictive substance, DMT has several health risks, can produce terrifying hallucinations, and can lead to psychological dependency.
…and DMT is apparently considered one of the safer psychedelics out there…
My opinion is that most any drug use is going to cause more delusion in the user, even though they might temporarily feel that it’s having the opposite effect.
No you’re right, it’s not always true, and I definitely would never say it is. As far as the side effects, to be honest I’ve never heard of that happening to anyone, and sounds a bit like “reefer madness” to me. That is not to say I think cannabis is a good idea for buddhists, I actually think that is kind of a waste of time for a practicing buddhist, and it is often more frequently used. I really stress the very occasional part of my suggestion that psychedelics can be used as tools, because anything more than that and you’re just indulging. But becoming dependent on them? With psychedelics in general this is very rare, and I would imagine they are people who are not practicing buddhism, and so they think it is the only place they can get that sense of higher being. For an experienced meditator, it’s just a little boost, no need for it to be done with any sort of frequency at all. I do take your point though, I will readily agree that it is certainly not for everyone.
The conversation was getting into are these DMT experiences real or not. I was pointing out that these same phenomena are known outside the use of DMT. It is possible that they are in fact what they appear to be. Whether that is the best way to experience them is another issue.
There are some really bad drugs out there that do ruin lives, families, and communities. I think that there are deeper societal issues that need to be addressed that cause this kind of drug use but in any case DMT does not seem to fall into this group of drugs.
Though I feel some drug use can be useful in kind of expanding the boundaries of normal consciousness - I do not see it as an alternative or short cut within Buddhist practice. The practice involes strengthening and developing the mind at subtler and subtler levels and there are no drugs that I know of that will do this. Besides, I would take dove-footed nymphs over machine elves any day.
I had to laugh at that one 
But really, I just feel like it is decidedly unBuddhist to be using drugs, or advocating for their use. There are some Tantricas out there who feel differently, of course - and they have had a big influence on the American understanding of Buddhism as a whole.
I am curious, is there anyone who thinks they can find any justification for the non-medicinal use of drugs within the EBTs?
I don’t think it would work that way. The search for Instant Enlightenment will drive most people to just grab a handful of recipes that advertise Universal Consciousness or something similar and bypass the tiresome purification of the mind. And then a few more scandals about corrupt and horny ‘gurus’ would emerge…
One could argue that the Buddha would have said to try some intense sleep deprivation, physical exhaustion, illness causing delirium and intoxication, in case they had some useful benefits. But he seemed more focused on getting enough food into himself and not be emaciated so that he could attain a jhana… and perhaps see devas that way.
We let go of the past and learn new more holistic ways of moving forwards.
with metta
Let me be clear though, I don’t see it as a shortcut to practice, and I certainly would never recommend that slippery slope of trying to reach enlightenment or universal consciousness or whatever. But these things are very different from what a lot of people do and what I’m talking about. Again, DMT was more about the machine elves, but as far as practice, psilocybin and LSD is far more useful. Taking psilocybin once every few years and dedicating the trip to contemplation, I don’t know, you’d have to be pretty uptight to be railing against that. That’s literally all I’m saying isn’t such a bad thing. Being such a purest is kinda missing the point about what the Dhamma actually is. I’m not saying you should ever try it, I’m only saying it’s ridiculous to think other people are ridiculous for trying it.
What I remember from my mushroom trips is a few hours of happiness and laughing and then its over without any residual effects. It is nothing like what happens to say someone who drinks too much alcohol - so yes I agree.
The role of virtue as I understand it is to develop a mind free from regret, remorse, worry, and agitation and such specifically because a mind developed in this way is inclined to joy and concentration. The potential for alcohol or amphetamines to cause problems in this regard is obvious where as for magic mushrooms - it’s a stretch. What is classified a drug or not a drug, what is declared legal or illegal has more to do with economics and politics than reason.
That being said, I have found the EBT based Buddhist practices much more enjoyable and rewarding than anything else in my life. I don’t know what your experience has been with Buddhist practice but if you are coming from the western pragmatic school - this is really, really different and way, way better.