Did He?
The thing is, it has the smell of reification of Buddha Dhamma. We have to be more careful on that.
I don’t know. It appears to be quite obvious to me.
Alas, just aware that in English; the word Moderation in Daoism, is one of the three jewels of Taoist thought.
Edit:
“What i have in mind is; jhana as catalyst, Dependent Origination as Moderation Dhamma (Resources) and Noble Eight-fold Path the Moderator, lastly Kamma the Mediator.”
I deleted the above, but after a second thought, the Moderation that i have in mind is not the same as Taoist thought; though has similarity in nature; so here i am placing it back. I find that we are at the period that is able to describe concept of an ever changing process better with definition of words that is appropriate, at least to me, until i see premise that it is not.
Jhana instead of being the last, it is rather the beginning of unshakable faith in Buddha’s teaching.
When one consider Jhana as you precribe, there may be a tendency of taking a view that there is a true self. I’m not saying that you are, just has this possible tendency.
Was that directed at me?
I find it so very interesting that many people warn of the dangers of jhāna, what can go wrong and so on. And therefore avoid jhāna altogether. Even though it does seem to be the main practice the Buddha taught, the main practice he did, the practice he called the path to englightenment, the practice he called the Middle Path, and the very climax of the Noble Eightfold Path.
I think it’s good to be aware of dangers. But not to take the peculiar Theravādin attitude of being so fearful of the Buddha’s main practice that we abandon it.
This is what i said
You are putting it as the last, that is what i see from your post; to
me a taste of jhana 1 is just the beginning.
That is not the Theravada that i know of; but i agree with your remarks on that, i did come across bhikkhu that discourage jhana.
Oh I see. Well yes, I put it as the last step of the Noble Eightfold Path. It’s number 8, sammā samādhi. ‘Just the beginning’ of the Noble Eightfold Path is, so far as it appears to me, a basic understanding of the 4 Noble Truths (right view). That is to say, first get a basic idea of the situation and where we are headed. Then you can move forward from there.
So it is evidently a view held by some Theravādins you have met! I would say it is quite common among Theravādins. The whole ‘dry insight’ movement, and the ‘access concentration only’ crew.
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By reading the above, you will see that cettovimutti really appears in the fifth jhana.
There is a will to liberate the citta in the second jhana (transcendence of citta), but not a real liberation of it.
Dry insight kind of occurs in the second jhana, and somewhat in the third. But it does not lead to a complete liberation of citta, from the kama loka and to the higher jhanas.
Vipassana is the process that occurs at the dhamma level in anapanasati (as shown in the table). There is a lot to be added to it, to reach nibbana.
Dry insight - vipassana is very incomplete.
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Wrong view: craving is the entirety of the problem- therefore overcoming the sensual realm (kaama loka), that is attaining jhana is the solution, and is enlightenment (Nibbana).
Right view: craving and ignorance is the entirety of the problem and therefore samatha samadhi (calm) and vipassana samadhi (insight) is the solution- therefore both must be pursued, jhana is essential for full enlightenment, hindrance free samadhi ideal for stream entry, at least. Nibbana is ‘beyond’ the eighth jhana and can be experienced in this life (while alive).
With metta,
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On right view…DN22:
And, bhikkhus, what is Right View?
Insight-knowledge of dukkha, Insight-knowledge of the origin of dukkha, Insight-knowledge of the cessation of dukkha, Insight-knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha.
This, bhikkhus, is called Right View.
Path is the middle-way…leading to knowledge & vision with right release.
Transcends between the fabricated and the unborn.
Transcends between Samsara and Nibbana.
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Where does “overcoming the sensual realm,” appears in the suttas as “wrong view”?!?
In, what jhana does overcoming the sensual realm appear ?
Jhana =/= overcoming the sensual realm therefore not enlightenment; only a suspension of sensual craving, eventually it wears off. The fact that it can wear off, then can not be enlightenment.
When it does wear off, immediate re-energize of jhana, the gap in between and the beginning of re-fusing, reviewing that, i would say that is one Right Mindfulness (Right Recollection, my preference).
Looking through the Sanskrit parallel at SF164, a “Śūnyatāsūtra,” whichever school’s Sanskrit parallel this is has the opposite “middle path formula” than what appears in the Pali Dutiyāvijjāpaccayasutta at SN 12.36, which matches the above “majjhena tathāgato dhammaṃ deseti” version found at SN12.15, SN12.36, SN12.47, etc. The Śūnyatāsūtra at SF164 has:
ity etāv ubhāv antāv anupagamyāsti madhyamā pratipad āryā lokottarā yathābhūtā aviparītā samyagdṛṣṭiḥ
Notice how the beginning looks like the MN139/SN56.11 version, but the end is divergent. Compare this with the Kātyāyanagotrasūtra at SF168:
ity etāv ubhāv antāv anupagamya madhyamayā pratipadā tathāgato dharmaṃ deśayati
It matches the Pali perfectly, but has to have the equivalent to “majjhimā paṭipadā” to work. I haven’t yet found a Sanskritic text with a reasonable reflex for “majjhena.” I think majjhena might be one of those very old Prakrit words that is irregular but regularlized in Classical Sanskrit.
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