Dhammavuddho Mahathera & sotāpatti

Hi folks,

Could posts in this thread please be kept a little closer to the questions asked in the original post:

  • Is that [the “path” attainment of stream-entry being instantaneously followed by “fruition”] an issue covered much in the “EBT”? If so, is there any readily accessible, in-depth discussion of that to be found (talks, contemporary commentarial writings, etc.)?

  • How solidly is this [that attainment along the path requires having contact with, hearing the dhamma from someone who really knows it] documented in the EBT – accepted as fairly clear, or a matter of debate?

Users are very welcome to open new threads to explore other details.

Much thanks. :slight_smile:

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No, it is not the same thing. By saying “anyone”, you implied that Sotapannas attained their fruits without even knowing it, which I have clearly proved the opposite.

This commentary by Bhikkhu Bodhi has many referenced suttas at the end and covers the topic of path and fruit.

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Thanks friend @Aminah for bringing us back to topic and for reformulating the questions so clearly.

Friend @cjmacie … Much of this confusion possibly arises from the expression “path attainment”, which in my understanding refers to someone who is already a stream-enterer; making it a reference to how it becomes only a matter of time before one attains the final goal. The word magga as commonly used in EBT, in my humble understanding, refers to “path of practice”. When attached with “phala”, it becomes “that path of practice leading to fruit” (or “fruition” as some prefer it). And so as we have in the famously chanted Dhajagga sutta (SN 11.3), we have four paths each leading to its corresponding fruit: ending with the eight “verily people” (a whimsical rendering of “purisapuggala” ok?). This means that someone who is practising in the way leading to stream-entry is also a purisapuggala even if they are not yet sotapanna. So the distinction between magga and phala is very clear in the text. If one is on sotapatti magga, then one is practising that way leading to sotapatti phala, and so forth. I don’t recall seeing anything in the text which refers to a “process of attainment” regarding the four fruits; and it don’t make sense to me. I mean how could one attain something but not yet really attain it?!

This is difficult to answer, since all of the suttas recount events that happened during the Buddha’s lifetime. Everybody in the suttas was in contact with either the Buddha himself or one of his chief disciples. Again I don’t recall seeing the Buddha giving any kind of instructions about the requirements of attainment in the furute after his departure or during the anticipated decline of sangha and disappearance of Dhamma. But given what we know about ‘paccekabuddhas’, those who attain final knowledge totally independently, without even receiving any teaching on Dhamma whatsoever; suggests that there can be no rule or necessity of contact with an enlightened person in order for one to be enlightened oneself. I am quite surprised with these statements; it sounds quite Mahayanic to me (as you noted).

I’d appreciate it too if someone points out where in the text there is mentioning of any such claims, though I think it’s very unlikely any such thing exists in the suttas.

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Judging from that view, do you hold that the Buddha may possibly be mistaken about what he taught?

#1: has been fully addressed here: Dhammavuddho Mahathera & sotāpatti - #3 by santa100

#2: The Nikayas’ always been “teaching-based”, not “teacher-based”. So no requirement from someone who really knows it. Matter of fact, per the Buddha’s Four Great Referrals teaching in DN 16, the only way to verify if “someone who really knows it” is to verify his/her claims against the Dhamma and Vinaya. So it all has to come back to the suttas and vinaya anyway.

"Bhikkhus, if any bhikkhu or bhikkhunī develops and cultivates five things, one of two fruits is to be expected: either final knowledge in this very life or, if there is a residue remaining, the state of non-returning. What are the five? Here, a bhikkhu has mindfulness well established internally for [gaining] the wisdom that discerns the arising and passing away of phenomena;1125 he dwells contemplating the unattractiveness of the body, perceiving the repulsiveness of food, perceiving non-delight in the entire world, and contemplating impermanence in all conditioned phenomena. If any bhikkhu or bhikkhunī develops and cultivates these five things, one of two fruits is to be expected: either final knowledge in this very life or, if there is a residue remaining, the state of non-returning.” ~~ AN 5.122 ~~

I explicitly remember a single sutta where someone mentioned to have achieved stream-entry-fruit and is interested in taking up the practice to once-returning. It was a singular sutta only, and darn, I can’t find it anymore, but maybe one of you remembers it…

How about AN 2.126

Bhikkhus, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. What two? The utterance of another [person] and careful attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view.”

or SN 55.50

“Bhikkhus, there are these four factors for stream-entry. What four? Association with superior
persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma.
These are the four factors for stream-entry.”

I discussed this issue a while ago with people who have pretty advanced practice and they felt that nowadays reading the suttas can replace hearing the dhamma from another person. In the Buddha’s day, there were no books…

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Surely at the time of the Buddha only way to learn Dhamma is to listen to it uttered by another. That’s why the suttapitaka that we have today is precious. “And” the good teachers!

Association with superior persons is certainly great, but not a “condition”.

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I think if an attained (at least someone you suspect is at least stream entrant) is available, there is something about setting the context, how they live and how they teach (inflections and nuances) can help. I think they say 80% of the communication is body language. Nowadays it is harder to find such people but even on-line we can pick up something of the way people go about things in their interactions. I would want to leave this in because of that. This is however not to say the teachings of such people (including the Buddha) cannot be effective otherwise in text form.

Association with superior people leads to hearing the True dhamma (sadhamma), leads to contemplation (yonisomanasikara) [with Right view being formed], leading to practice according to the dhamma (dhammanudhammapatipada)- tilakkhana of the five aggregates (Anudhamma sutta: SN22.39 to SN22.42.

with metta

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Re question 1 (magga & phala) – thank you santa100 (#3). Rupert Gethin’s discussion, mentioned in the B. Bodhi citation, is proving rewarding, though s/w heavy reading. I’m analyzing that, and re-studying Dhammavuddho’s talk in more detail prior to reporting back here.

Re question 2 (the significance of personal contact / teaching) – thanks Dhammarakkhita (#24 & #29), santa100 (#26), vimalanyani (#28), Mat (#30) for the informative inputs.

I guess I’m more attuned to sutta passages mentioning the value of associating with or consulting “the wise”, as this theme is emphasized often in Thanissaro B’s teaching (and he’s the teacher I have most access to); and from the experience that hearing a good teacher elucidate sutta-s is often far more memorable than just reading them on my own.

Not to deny the possibility of one figuring it all out on their own. But in today’s environment, where self-enlightened (“secular” and “pragmatic”) teachers are a dime-a-dozen on the internet my instinct is more one of skepticism.

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Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. MN70

Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, “Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?” He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, “This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma.” So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper’s mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye [Sotapatti Magga?]arose within him, “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”
— Ud 5.3

Can you please post Ven. Thanissaro’s answer ?

It’s in the last audio recording of this series (bottom of the list); very near the end the hour, if I recall. (Don’t have the time to search it out at the moment.)
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/16/talk/8209/

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Thanks.

Thanks for the patience. Here’s the raw data (transcribed and slightly edited):
From the mp3 file “the_ten_perfections_renunciation_endurance_equanimity”,
at 57’ 40”:

Q: From your essay, “The Power of Judgment”, 99.9% of the time we’re deluded, so we need guidance, we need people to [be able to] judge [rightly], like in your talks yesterday, how do you know it’s the right discernment [you’re using]; but is there a point, like in the Dhammapada or where-ever, that you are the refuge for yourself, the dhamma’s your refuge, equating the two, is there a point, like sotapatti, where you’re self-reliant, where you don’t need this external help?

A: [with sotapatti] you know what the path is, you know what the goal is at that point. Now, you still have some issues that you’re going to have to work out: you haven’t fully mastered concentration yet, you haven’t fully mastered your discernment yet, but you’ve had the experience, the guarantee this is the right path, because you’ve seen the Deathless, and the same time you realize, ok, this path I’m following is the path that leads there, the Buddha knows what he’s talking about, and you’ve got the sense of the path at that point.

Q: … today there’s so few qualified monastic teachers and everyone needs this guidance, needs someone to say ‘you’re going off the cliff’, and it’s very rare to get that guidance, but is there a point where you don’t need it anymore?

A: After stream-entry you’re safer.

Questioner: Well, let’s do it.

(This came at the end of an interesting series of questions, from about 47
minutes in the same mp3.)

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“Now, Master Gotama, to what extent is a disciple of Master Gotama one who carries out his message, carries out his instruction, one who has crossed over & beyond doubt, one with no more questioning, one who has gained fearlessness and dwells independent of others with regard to the Teacher’s message?”
.
"There is the case, Aggivessana, where a disciple of mine sees with right discernment any form whatsoever — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form as it has come to be — as ‘This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.’
.
"He sees with right discernment any feeling… any perception… any fabrications… any consciousness whatsoever — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness as it has come to be — as ‘This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.’
MN35

It is interesting- I think independent of others means they know the dhamma (phenomena) directly (sandittiko) and is therefore doesn’t need another to teach it to them. However this is not to say they do not require a teacher after this. It is said Ven Sariputta would teach students up to stream entry but Ven Moggallana would teach them the rest of the way as he did not want to see anyone with the slightest defilements in their mind, among the Bhikkhus.

with metta

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The Satipatthana suta lists stream entry as one of the outcomes. Also this:

"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquility. As he develops insight preceded by tranquility, the path is born. AN4.170

The path, being referred to here, I believe is the sotapatti magga/path or ‘dhamma eye’. So it is possible that if one has developed a correct understanding of dhamma (phenomena),i.e. Right view, he may then do samatha-vipassana and penetrate into stream entry.

He needs a teacher to develop Right view, but does the practice on his own. At least this is one model.

with metta

Thanks !

I don’t have fast Internet at the moment, so am unable to view/download lengthy files.

So, Thanissaro’s position is that stream-entry is attained when Nibbana is experienced once by managing to suppress (not fully eradicate) pollutants in the mind, thus removing all doubt and indecisiveness. This is in concordance with what Ven. Brahmali said in a thread here.

This is the main defilement, to me. Self-identity views and all the assorted negative states of mind that result from clinging to personality fabrications that are mostly just fluff and noise.

Both ends of the spectrum are wearisome - arrogance, vanity, the desire to be seen as intelligent, excessive attachment to ephemeral qualities in oneself, exhibiting calmness and dignity when they are standing on a foundation of pretence etc. And the other end is equally tiresome - notions of inadequacy, taking failures and disappointments too seriously, extreme sensitivity to external opinions resulting in mental torment…

Just laying down the burden of a personality would be such a big relief, but IMO, it is also the hardest. Mortality and the spectre of aging and diseases can reduce attachment to the body really fast, but conceit is a different game altogether.