Distinction between Bhava vs Jati

[Adutiya]

@anom

Is it correct to say Bhava has three realms of existence for future rebirths:

1. Kāmabhava (Sensual Becoming)
2. Rūpabhava (Form Becoming)
3. Arūpabhava (Formless Becoming)

Actually, since bhava doesn’t mean becoming, according to AN 6.105 it’s:

1. Existence in the sensual realm
2. Existence in the realm of luminous form
3. Existence in the formless realm.

[Joe.C]

@anom

If so can bhava also describe the states a yogi can experience in this human realm, here and now?

DN 9

If others should ask us, ‘But reverends, what is that reincarnation in a mind-made life-form?’ We’d answer like this, ‘This is that reincarnation in a mind-made life-form

Per this sutta, basically when one gain samma samadhi, their mind has transcend solid form. And remain so till death of body.

This is a reason why a non returner knows that they will not coming back to sensual realm ever here and now. Not only when they die.

Likewise an arahant know, bhava has stopped here and now.

[anom]

@Adutiya

bhava doesn’t mean becoming, according to AN 6.105

Thats super interesting. Thanks!

Can anyone with a grasp of Pali grammer please help me learn if in this passage with bhavo:

kammaṁ nābhavissa, api nu kho kāmabhavo paññāyethā”ti?
SuttaCentral

*bhavo*

pos	grammar		word
noun	masc nom sg	of	bhava
verb	aor 2nd sg	of	bhavi

is bhavo acting as a noun or a verb or both or neither , depending on the translation process?

[stephen]

@anom

api nu kho kāmabhavo paññāyethā”ti?

Kāmabhavo is the nominative noun in this passive construction.
paññāyetha is the verb, the passive form of pajānāti in the optative.

‘Could sense sphere existence be known/ exist ?’

It’s interesting that in that famous sentence (truncated here), we find kāma-dhātu and kāma-bhavo.

[Sunyo]

@Clarity

As stated in Saṁyojanasutta AN 4.131 in your reply, upapattipaṭilābhiyāni saṁyojanāni and jati are not synonymous.

Hi, I can see why you don’t see them as synonymous. I don’t really want to argue with that. I don’t think it’s a very important matter, anyway. But just to clarify, the sutta doesn’t actually state this. Just because it uses upapatti and not jati doesn’t mean the two can’t be synonymous. Maybe they aren’t, as you suggest, but I think we can’t derive that from this sutta.

I agree, though, that it seems jati refers to more than just physical birth, such as when the Buddha says “this is my last birth”.

[GeeKay]

@Clarity

According to my understanding, those 2 terms are not synonymous. As stated in Saṁyojanasutta AN 4.131 in your reply, upapattipaṭilābhiyāni saṁyojanāni and jati are not synonymous. There are certain subtle differences between them.

I not saw the AN 4.131 before. AN4.131 look to be 1 sutta in 10,000. I only find upapattipaṭilābhiyāni in this one only sutta.

@Clarity

Upapattipaṭilābhiyāni saṁyojanāni is the fetter that enable the acquisition and sustenance of rebirth.

Upapatti noun of verb upapajjati and upapanna. When this words is used in sutta, it is connection to self-concept of “a being” (“satta”). Akaniṭṭha is class of god. I think the Akaniṭṭha Non-Returner must have stronger concept of conceit and believe “I am a god” or otherwise more probable have very strong delight/lust towards jhana & arupa (which is 6th & 7th fetter) and lacking dispassionate mind towards jhana & arupa dimension.

For repeat, it is a “upapatti” because is a class of god called “Akaniṭṭha”.

If it is attachment as another class of god, is is also “upapatti”. Can read AN4.123 about many other different class of gods causing by delighting in the the different jhana or can read the AN4.124 quote here. All different class of god in AN4.123 & AN4.124 is “upapajjati”.

They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as a boil, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.

When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn (upapajjati) in the company of the gods of the pure abodes.

This rebirth (upapatti) is distinct from that of ordinary people (puthujjanehi).

AN4.124

@Clarity

In other words, for the special type of non-returner who is antara-parinibbāyī

Parinibbāyī is found in ordinary description of non-returner in majority of many sutta. Not look special. Parinibbāyī Non-Returner maybe have weak conceit; strongly practising path of stopping & abandoning self-views arisings. But not yet uproot self-views tendency completely. Otherwise, maybe Parinibbāyī Non-Returner have strong dispassionate mind towards the jhana and arupa dimension but not yet Arahant.

@Clarity

he did get a very short jati due to bhava

Long life, short life, would still be the rebirth if it is the rebirth. MN135 not make any difference between short life & long life. In the MN 135 both short life & long life is a upapajjati.

@Clarity

According to my understanding, those 2 terms are not synonymous.

Upapatti and jati not synonymous. Why?

• Mn72 say Arahant not not upapajjati (Arahant is not ‘not reborn’).

• Many sutta say Arahant not have any more jati (Arahant is ‘not jati’).

To summary, word upapatti is maybe mean stuck in self-view or for Non-Returner probable stuck in delight for jhana (strong 6th & 7th fetter); like SN23.2 about “a being” mean “stuck in delight”. Jati just impermanence phenomena Dhamma Eye can see as impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease - SN 12.20. I think the scholar often confuse the upapatti and the jati. They take the impermanence vanishing jati satta to mean the stuck in sticky upapatti satta. To belief “jati” mean “a lifetime” sound like “upapatti” for me; similar to “my lifetime”. “My this lifetime” sound like upapatti.