Do AN6.119 and AN6.120-139 speak of lay arahants?

[Malunkyaputta]

Btw: What is the cause of death for lay arahant not enrobing within 7 days?

What if a family father goes to a Mexico vacation with his wife and children for 14 days and unexpectantly on the first day turns Arahat?

What if somebody in a country without monastaries turns Arahat?

[yeshe.tenley]

@Malunkyaputta

What if a family father goes to a Mexico vacation with his wife and children for 14 days and unexpectantly on the first day turns Arahat?

Do you see how many assumptions go into such a question? This is the result of literal interpretations, dogma, and motivated reasoning. This would be recognized as the project of apologia in Christian communities and as abhidhamma in Buddhist circles.

[NgXinZhao]

@Max

Sutta mentioned he only attained sotapanna .

Bāhiya Sutta: Bāhiya we have sutta recorded lay (unordained) arahant.

@Malunkyaputta

What is the cause of death for lay arahant not enrobing within 7 days?

Do AN6.119 and AN6.120-139 speak of lay arahants?

They can be lay arahant, but classical Theravada just say they cannot live for too long. You mean to ask why they cannot live for too long? The life of a lay person has not enough virtue/precepts to contain the pure mind of an arahant. Arahants do not long for death or life, without desire, they don’t work (for money), they might not eat. Non returners it seems already don’t use money. Maybe when ordained, even as a sāmaṇera (as there were kid arahants), out of respect for the Buddha, dhamm…

@Malunkyaputta

What if a family father goes to a Mexico vacation with his wife and children for 14 days and unexpectantly on the first day turns Arahat?

What if somebody in a country without monastaries turns Arahat?

Then we rejoice and congratulate the person.

[Max]

@NgXinZhao

Bāhiya Sutta: Bāhiya we have sutta recorded lay (unordained) arahant.

So , you took Bāhiya of the Bark Rob as Layman although Bahiya was an Ascetic at that time though unordained under the Buddha or His order . However , it wouldnt be right with such logics . If you remember the first time the Buddha preached to the Five Ascetics they werent Ordained under the Buddha too .

[rajeevdagla]

Sir,

“amataddaso amataṃ sacchikatvā iriyati” = one sees freedom from death and lives having realized freedom from death.

We are assuming the word “amataṃ” (freedom from death) as “Complete Niroadha samapatti” (or Nibbana) is not correct because Anathapindika was reborn as a deity in Tushita Heaven. So, here we can be sure that the Buddha is not talking about Nibbana, but some stage lower than that.

refer “Anāthapiṇḍikovādasutta”
Then, late at night, the glorious god Anāthapiṇḍika, lighting up the entire Jeta’s Grove, went up to the Buddha, bowed, stood to one side, and addressed the Buddha in verse." SuttaCentral

[rajeevdagla]

Vandami, Bhante,
Well Said, Wonderful !!

[rajeevdagla]

@Gabriel

then why not to live as a single lay person, earning a bit of money, without the burden of monastic life?

This is perfectly right, but it does not mean that a householder, possessing wealth and living on earth, is an arhat.

[NgXinZhao]

@rajeevdagla

We are assuming the word “amataṃ” (freedom from death) as “Complete Niroadha samapatti” (or Nibbana) is not correct because Anathapindika was reborn as a deity in Tushita Heaven. So, here we can be sure that the Buddha is not talking about Nibbana, but some stage lower than that.

There’s nothing else which deserves the label of deathless. Only nibbāna.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5fb3712e078933551aaca793/t/659d0df2f7e02c6cf58a93a3/1704791586114/CENE-Final-FA-INTERACTIVE.pdf

see page 89 onwards.

nirodha samapatti is not the same as seeing nibbāna. There’s no mind in nirodha samapatti to know anything.

Lives having realized the deathless doesn’t describe the arahant then. See page 99 above to contrast between arahant vs sekhas.

[rajeevdagla]

Absolutely agreed, Venerable!

@NgXinZhao

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5fb3712e078933551aaca793/t/659d0df2f7e02c6cf58a93a3/1704791586114/CENE-Final-FA-INTERACTIVE.pdf

Bhante, the text seems wonderful, but simultaneously it appears beyond my scope, beyond my syllabus.

[rajeevdagla]

@NgXinZhao

nirodha samapatti is not the same as seeing nibbāna.

Thanks for clue bhante ji, but I still do not understand the diffrence in “Nirodha Samapatti” and “fal Samapatti”

[NgXinZhao]

@rajeevdagla

fal Samapatti

I assume you mean final? Final parinnibbāna is not a meditative state. The cessation of perception and feelings: a temporary nibbāna?

[rajeevdagla]

Sorry Bhante, I mean “Phal Samapatti” fruition attainment
Best Regards Bhante ji

[NgXinZhao]

Phala

First part of this book, by Bhante Aggacitta explains this well: CESSATION EXPERIENCES & THE NOTION OF AWAKENING eBook (updated Jan2024) — Theravada Buddhist Council of Malaysia

I already posted it above.

In short, fruition attainment still has consciousness which sees Nibbāna, whereas cessation attainment doesn’t have any mind at all. My personal ranking of their relative happiness, is that the less aggregate, the happier. So cessation attainment seems “happier” for having no experiences. This should be an alarm bell for those who identify the nature of parinibbāna to be the same as fruition attainment where there is eternal knowing/seeing of Nibbāna.

[rajeevdagla]

Saadhu Saadhu Saadhu !! Great !! Thanks Bhante !!