Do Arahants have Vitakka and Vicar?
Then the Blessed One entered the first jhana.
Atha kho bhagavÄ paášhamaáš jhÄnaáš samÄpajji
I think vitakka and vicara are present in day to day minds, and also in the minds of arahanths in any state below (and not including) the second jhana. By vitakka and vicara I assume you mean thoughts.
with metta
No, I mean Vitakka and Vicara.
Good point!
Then what sort of Vitakka and Vicara the Blessed One possessed?
This is the question I have always had with Ajahn Brahmâs description of vitakka & vicara as the âjhana wobbleâ, where AB states on page 155 of his book:
âthe bliss is so delicious that it can generate a small residue of attachment⌠the mind instinctively grasps at the bliss⌠the mind grasps again, then lets go again⌠such subtle involuntary movement gives rise to the wobble of the first jhanaâŚcalled vitakka & vicaraââŚ
While I do not doubt ABâs description of a âwobbleâ in the 1st jhana of a trainee (sekkha), once-returner or non-returner is entirely valid, that the EBTs describe the Buddha entering the 1st jhana seems to contradict ABâs description, since the âwobbleâ is obviously caused by ignorance, delight & grasping and, in response, mindfulness rectifying this grasping. This would not happen to an arahant.
In my opinion, Arahants do not have Vitakka and Vicara.
Arahants have Kiriya Citta which are not Vitakka and Vicara.
I may be wrong.
[quote=âMat, post:3, topic:5619, full:trueâ]
I think vitakka and vicara are present in day to day minds, and also in the minds of arahanths in any state below (and not including) the second jhanaâŚ[/quote]
That seems accurate. From previous extensive discussion (e.g. V. Sujatoâs multifaceted blog âWhy vitakka doesnât mean âthinkingâ in jhanaâ), vitakka & vicara
(v&v) has varied meanings in different contexts, i.e. both within the EBT as well as across other parts of the Pali Canon, as also the meanings of âthoughtâ across itâs various usages in the English language. It is said that arahants experience purely âfunctionalâ mental processes (kiriya citta-s, as SarathW1 notes), that is, simply ad hoc, here and now, presence in relationship to arising phenomena, rather than kamma-generating reactions. (This being an abhidhamma understanding, perhaps not explicit in EBT texts, but which doesnât necessarily mean that itâs âwrongâ.)
Another perspective would be that there are, experientially, two different phases of v&v at play here. First is the use of directing and holding attention (v&v) to the object in approaching jhana from upacara (âneighborhoodâ) concentration. Second is within 1st jhana the possible flagging of v&v attention (for instance, due to flagging energy or distraction by strongly intruding stimuli), where the mind can drift in and out of absorption. It seems logical that A. Brahmâs description (âwobbleâ) refers to the latter but not the former. In the former, a degree of chandra is at work as possibly a form of skillful desire, whereas in the later it can be more a matter of a lesser degree of mastery.
The Buddhaâs, or anyoneâs, process of approaching and entering 1st jhana involves directing and sustaining attention (v&v), although with greater mastery this can become a virtually instantaneous event â one can simply incline to a deeply embedded memory of absorption and immediately re-call, re-enter it, which was most likely the way the Buddha could do it.
As is well-known and often cited as a draw-back of jhanic-absorption, the pleasantness (sukha) of the experience can fall into tanha and upadana but not necessarily so. That is also not necessarily the case in general â not necessarily so for all persons in stages 1 to 3 of attainment or non-attainment, and certainly not for an arahant.
(This analysis, I believe, does not contradict Deeeleâs assessment, but rather enumerates more subtle variations of the situation, the conditions.)
This is not ABâs explanation. The wobble occurs due to a minor tendency of delight or attachment towards the bliss and then the operation of mindfulness to abandon that delight & attachment. In this process, the one-pointedness or ekkaggata does not change.
In real jhana, the mind does not drift in & out of absorption because the mind has ekkaggata. Not every state of rapture arising due to concentration is jhana. Often suppression based wrong concentration results in rapture, which is mistaken or overestimated as jhana.
In my experience on internet chat sites, every declaration or claim of jhana I have ever read I believe is an enormous over-estimation. I cannot image any mind that has truly experienced jhana would make a public declaration. This sounds impossible since it is the mind rather than a âselfâ that reaches & experiences jhana. To say: âI have experienced jhanaâ is illogical & non-sequitur.
SN 48.10 states the Buddhaâs jhana occurs by making letting go (vossagga) the meditation object.
ABâs explanation & also Bhante Sujatoâs (somewhere on his old blog) appear to possibly be consistent with SN 48.10 but appear contrary to the usual Vissuddhimagga approach of hitting a nail with a hammer or hitting a bell or whatever it is.
I like to picture jhana as like pulling the plug out of a bath tub & the water whirlpooling out. The only effort & intention required is to pull out the plug. Once the plug has been âlet goâ of, the water itself merges or whirlpools towards absorption (drawn by the stream of gravity/Nibbana).
I believe not. What are called âvariationsâ are certainly not âsubtleâ. To the contrary, they sound like coarse mental sankharas that hinder jhana.
Regards
Some context: In a readily available talk (youtube â âA Life of Pleasure (Jhana) Bhante Sujatoâ ), V. Sujato notes that the Buddha (EBT) doesnât specify a lot of detail of method for jhana, but taught more about the subjective side the meditation experience, emotional response to the object; typically in terms of a âgradual cessationâ, from the more stimulating (piti rapture, uplift, thrill) to the more settling (passadi, sukha). And the emotional process of responding can vary according to the object, e.g. with metta as object more towards joy, with recollections as object more towards rapture, with breath as object more towards deeper tranquility.
He further mentions that experiential descriptions vary coming from different individuals (with their differing temperaments and other conditioned factors). A. Brahmâs description being one among many (e.g. in his book/essay âThe Jhanasâ, Singapore). Some depictions focus on the piti-type rapture at the initial entry into jhana (e.g. Leigh Brasington and his tutor Ayya Khema). Others find the entry more marked by stillness, tranquility. A. Brahm, s/w uniquely, also uses the term âblissâ in a rather involved manner: to represent pitisukha in the 1st two jhanas, and later redefines âblissâ (as the more tranquil sukha) in the 3rd jhana. His association of the âwobbleâ (in the 1st) with the subtle mental motion of attachment to then letting go of âblissâ appears to be more along the lines of that more rapturous interpretation of the state: (on p.32 in âThe Jhanasâ: âVitakka â VicĂĄra: experienced as the âwobble,â being the fine, subtle movement in and out of the bliss")
As V. Sujato notes, others may experience more dominantly the quality of tranquility. They then might describe that subtle motion (Brahmâs âwobbleâ) in other terms, such as those I suggested â flagging energy losing the steady attention then reactivating it, or momentary intrusion of strong external (or even internal) stimuli. Keep in mind, the 1st jhana is still precariously close to sensory disruption, as in the Buddhaâs âthornâ metaphor. On the other hand, true absorption (appana-jhana), having a distinct neurological / physiological correlate basis, has a certain quality of momentum or inertia. Well-qualified teachers have pointed out that one can momentarily suspend full absorption to performs tasks such as adjusting the legs, or changing from sitting to standing position, while holding the mind very close to absorption, and can then easily slip (let-go) back into appana (without having to start over again from scratch, so to speak). Also, entering and leaving absorption, even very quickly, is later an advanced skill, when seriously applying insight to experience, including the experience of jhana it self (cf, MN-111).
[quote=âDeeele, post:9, topic:5619, full:trueâ]Not every state of rapture arising due to concentration is jhana. Often suppression based wrong concentration results in rapture, which is mistaken or overestimated as jhana.
In my experience on internet chat sites, every declaration or claim of jhana I have ever read I believe is an enormous over-estimation. I cannot image any mind that has truly experienced jhana would make a public declaration. This sounds impossible since it is the mind rather than a âselfâ that reaches & experiences jhana. To say: âI have experienced jhanaâ is illogical & non-sequitur. [/quote]
This is all well-known, as can witnessed in many on-line discussion groups â where a typical OP goes something like âI think I may have got jhanaâ. With luck, some else in the discussion may point out that with entry into true appana-jhana, thereâs no doubt about. And thereâs a clear difference between (1) what some people imagine after reading some âeasierâ method (for instance, from Leigh Brasington, Bhante Vimalaramsi, Bodhipaksa, etc.) and experimenting on their own a bit, and (2) the experience of others who undertake multiple in-depth retreats with unquestionably
qualified teachers â usually monastics, but also some lay teachers â and have their experiences confirmed by the teachers.
âExperience on internet chat sitesâ is hardly a credible basis for authority in this area.