Do the EBTs say meditation is necessary for stream entry?

For example it’s not clear what this means.

  1. He is endowed with virtue that is agreeable to the noble ones (thus): Whatever virtue there is, it is unbroken, faultless, unspotted, unblemished, productive of freedom, not adhered to, well-obtained, well-undertaken, praised by the wise, uncensured by the wise.

https://suttacentral.net/arv21/en/anandajoti

To my understanding this person has removed many bad qualities. So the exact practice it’s not written. But it’s obvious that they are practicing things praised by the wise.

Could you please cite which Analayo work this came from? I am curious to read more of the article.

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According to Sotapatti Samyutta of SN/SA, meditation/samadhi is no necessary for stream entry. For stream entry, one only needs the following four qualities:

Definite faith (aveccappasada) in the Buddha, dhamma, the Sangha, and noble morality (ariyakanta-sila; such as the five precepts). See Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 228-235.

It is rare for someone to request the references provided, but in their interests to do so. The extract comes from the book “Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization,” Chapter V where Ven. Analayo discusses the refrain which occurs after each exercise in the Satipatthana sutta, that is 13 times. The discussion of impermanence is at V.3 (102)

Refrain section:

Or, he abides contemplating the nature of arising in the body, or he abides contemplating the nature of passing away in the body, or he abides contemplating the nature of both arising and passing away in the body.

—————————-

“The “refrain” instructs the meditator to contemplate “the nature of arising”, “the nature of passing away”, and “the nature of both arising and passing away”. Paralleling the instruction on internal and external contemplation, the three parts of this instruction represent a temporal progression which leads from observing the arising aspect of phenomena to focusing on their disappearance, and culminates in a comprehensive vision of impermanence as such.”

“Thus the direct experience of impermanence represents indeed the “power” aspect of meditative wisdom.”—-Analayo

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Can we work towards suttas in suttacentral

Because how is the samadhindriya understood in the suttas? @paul1

You have evidence for not being meditation?

“Mendicants, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. A noble disciple comes to truly understand these five faculties’ gratification, drawback, and escape. Such a noble disciple is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.2/en/sujato

Mindfulness here is Samadhi which is Meditation.

@thomaslaw

SN55.5 gives what is often translated as the “four factors for stream entry”:

For the factors of stream-entry are associating with good people, listening to the true teaching, proper attention, and practicing in line with the teaching.

The typical situation in the suttas when a person’s Dhamma eye opens is when listening to a Dhamma discourse (not in meditation), e.g. in Ud5.3:

When the Gracious One knew that the leper Suppabuddha was of ready mind, malleable mind, unhindered mind, uplifted mind, trusting mind, then he explained the Dhamma teaching the Awakened Ones have discovered themselves: suffering, origination, cessation, path.

8Just as it is known that a clean cloth without a stain would take the dye well, so to the leper Suppabuddha on that very seat, the dust-free, stainless Vision-of-the-Dhamma arose: “Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of ceasing.”

Though, as someone earlier pointed out, it probably usually takes quite a bit of work for a person to have a mind that is close to being ready, malleable, unhindered, uplifted and trusting.

I interpret the four factors for stream entry above as factors helping and making more likely the arising of this process. It seems very likely that one of the items, “practicing in line with the teaching”, includes meditation. Though whether it is beyond being very helpful and strictly always a prerequisite is another question.

There are also the four factors of stream entry. These are listed as the “mirror of the Dhamma” in suttas such as the Mahāparinibbāṇa Sutta (attributes that one should have when one is a stream enterer): unshakeable faith in the Buddha, dhamma and sangha and having the virtues dear to the noble ones, but these seem to be characteristics after stream entry.

There’s also a whole debate about whether not just regular meditation but rather advanced meditation like jhana is needed for stream entry. I made a post on this here only recently arguing jhana is not needed. However, many well-known teachers such as Thanissaro Bhikkhu would disagree (as well Bhante Sujato of SuttaCentral who responded to some of my points that thread). It’s not a straightforward topic! :slight_smile:

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If having attained all the five facilities, it looks like being a Buddha!

In the idea of Buddha making these progressive talks and the person attains it. It’s not saying if the person is sitting with eyes closed.

People do that in Asia. See any video where the Bhante is preaching and the persons are in meditation.

We have to understand also that actually that was done by Buddha to Rahula while he was meditating. Giving instruction while someone is meditating is normal process for teachers.

If you think that Buddha was meditation teacher you will expect the people to sit and meditate once in a while. With a calm mind then the teaching is understood.

But again we can not compare what Buddha did. To be the same for now

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In the understanding of EBT probably they left clear indication that the 5 Indriyas are something to be cultivated

“That’s so true, Blessed One! That’s so true, Holy One! When these five faculties are developed and cultivated they culminate, finish, and end in the deathless. What five? The faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. When these five faculties are developed and cultivated they culminate, finish, and end in the deathless.

Once upon a time, sir, I lived the spiritual life under the fully awakened Buddha Kassapa. There they knew me as the mendicant Sahaka. Because of developing and cultivating these same five faculties I lost desire for sensual pleasures. When my body broke up, after death, I was reborn in a good place, in the Brahmā realm. There they know me as Brahmā Sahampati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.57/en/sujato

It does not get more clear than this.

Mendicants, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom.

And where should the faculty of faith be seen? In the four factors of stream-entry.

And where should the faculty of energy be seen? In the four right efforts.

And where should the faculty of mindfulness be seen? In the four kinds of mindfulness meditation.

And where should the faculty of immersion be seen? In the four absorptions.

And where should the faculty of wisdom be seen? In the four noble truths.

These are the five faculties.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.8/en/sujato

And what is the faculty of mindfulness? It’s when a noble disciple is mindful. They have utmost mindfulness and alertness, and can remember and recall what was said and done long ago. They meditate observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They meditate observing an aspect of feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.10/en/sujato

Here is a related discussion from early last year that raised some points relative to this issue:

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So, is meditation/samadhi needed for the stream entry?

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my point from the beginning of this post. Is that we stop comparing what happened in the suttas as possible today. That’s what most people do. But still I said the Elders in suttas was a former ascetic like the two main disciples. And the fire worshipers and we have many other examples. The 5 first Ascetics. Besides that we have to remember that they probably did meditation in the past life. Theravada teaching for example of not needing to crave for tastes because we once experienced all tastes in our past life. So what do you expect? What I’m saying is meditation is needed before listening to the Dhamma talks to open the “Dharma Eye”

I’m not saying while meditating there is Sotapanna. Possible

But it’s like drinking a lot alcohol your mind becomes dull.

Well. With meditation one day it will help you.

And Buddha always preached to people that was ready actually. Because past life etc and even was meditating already before they met Buddha. Doing loving kindness meditation etc

But if you see the suttas again. I make them smaller.

So first understanding

A noble disciple comes to truly understand these five faculties’ gratification, drawback, and escape. Such a noble disciple is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.”

How one understand if he doesn’t do them. Mindfulness is the 4 Mindfulness Meditation

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That’s definitely a point (though I suppose practically it must be a kind of meditation in which one can listen to the talk). Or maybe the talk triggers a realization that in turn sparks a leap into a form of samadhi.

There’s also (as you pointed out) a certain argument to be made with regards to the five indriya. SN48 does have suttas like SN48.15 that rank attainments in terms of the degree of completion and fulfullment of the five faculties, including the faculty of samadhi. I suppose if even faith and dhamma followers are described as having some degree of samadhi, it makes sense to think that those practicing for the next step along, stream-entry, would likewise generally have some degree of this also.

Ok. I see your point about the sutta. Nice one. That’s why the suttas is difficult to understand for our generation. More easy to browse but we lack understanding. Maybe opening the Dharma Eye is also used when faith came to be in that moment of listening to Dhamma talks.

Is there a Elder in sutta that was described to have opened the Dharma Eye? And still another sutta describe the Elder as attaining stream-entry?

That’s what we need

I forgot to say what you said is what it is probably. The talk deep from Buddha triggers a samadhi state. @suaimhneas

That’s probably not possible so much nowadays. That’s a skill of a Buddha.

I have just noticed also the Path also in the suttas of abandoning the lower fetter is Meditation.

I did find this

“There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because I have not declared that to be a disqualification in these circumstances. But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue. Having undertaken them, he trains in reference to the training rules.
“With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.87/en/thanissaro

@anon56320353

moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment.

Wow you gave me goosebumps. Thanks. Your right. Very important. Since we never know of tomorrow

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The suttas are not really clear even in attainments

We know the famous conversion of Sāriputta. Believed to be his attainment of Sotapanna. He was a co-leader already at that time. So meditator

Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the wanderer:"Whatever phenomena arise from a cause: Their cause & their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, the Great Contemplative."Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this exposition of Dhamma, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.

After

Once Sāriputta was fanning Buddha

Now at that time Venerable Sāriputta was standing behind the Buddha fanning him. Then he thought, “It seems the Buddha speaks of giving up and letting go all these things through direct knowledge.” Reflecting like this, Venerable Sāriputta’s mind was freed from the defilements by not grasping.

Many suttas explains mind freed as reaching the end goal

But another sutta explain his meditation experience. As taints destroyed

“Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom”

Excerpt From
The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha
Nanamoli & Bodhi

This material may be protected by copyright.

There seems to be a reason.

I think there is entering the Path and attainments of the fruit Path is always in meditation

I tried finding instance like this for Sotapanna I can’t. The progression

But I think the experience in meditation brings the full Path no matter which of the 4 Paths

“meditation” is the contemporary word applied for the image of a buddhist.

However, the Buddha used the word “bhavana” which means “training, cultivating the mind”.
You can investigate “bhavana” word.

Bhavana include the cultivation using seated meditation, without it, or both.

Bhavana is required for stream entry. With seated meditation or without it. It doesn’t depend of body position but of what happens in the mind. Seated meditation can help to that or perhaps no. It can depend of kamma, I suppose

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Fyi, in this article Bhikkhu Bodhi says jhanas (therefore meditattive consentration) is unnecessary for attaining stream-entry according to Pali suttas:

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm

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