SuttaCentral
Is there a way of understanding that resolves this issue? I
Bhante,
One can’t experience two different feelings in the same place at the same time.
BTW, I do believe that the Buddha most likely taught momentariness, hence why most if not ALL major philosophical schools of Buddhism (Sarvastivada, Sutrantika, Yogacara, Madhymaka, Theravada) teach that, and momentariness, in principle, is confirmed by personal experience and science.
A person who thinks all the time has nothing to think about except thoughts - Alan Watts [Alan Watts: Don’t Think Too Much -]
I liked the comparison to eating cake OP, we can eat cake and enjoy it, but at the same time feel a sense of guilt for doing so.
Which is the stronger of the two feelings, well that depends on whether you stop eating the cake or not.
It’s possible to have more than two feelings at the same time, not just with eating cake but with anything.
How I get through this to avoid overthinking, is to go with the first feeling. ie, ‘I feel like having some cake, the second feeling of guilt whilst I’m just about to eat it, get’s discarded instantaneously’
It saves me a lot of time and unnecessary stress.
Is that experience with two simultaneously present minds?
Or is it experienced as a singular, sum-total, feeling with only one mind.
I liked the comparison to eating cake OP, we can eat cake and enjoy it, but at the same time feel a sense of guilt for doing so.
It is not an equal comparison.
In that case there is comparison between guilt (sankhara) and its pleasure (vedana). Different aggregates.
It totally depends WHAT one thinks about. Dhamma is not about becoming thoughtless like a statue.
Thinking about the Dhamma and kusala - is good and to be encouraged.
Thinking with akusala - is unwholesome and to be avoided as much as possible.
It’s an experience based on the OP’s original question. One that I’d also recognised years ago!
I liked the comparison to eating cake OP, we can eat cake and enjoy it, but at the same time feel a sense of guilt for doing so.
It is not an equal comparison.
In that case there is comparison between guilt (sankhara) and its pleasure (vedana). Different aggregates.
OP’s original post, not mine…
The idea that only one kind of feeling can be experienced at a time became an oft-repeated adage of Buddhist psychology, but it is not empirically obvious that it is the case. One can, for example, enjoy the taste of cake while feeling guilty about eating it; or experience meditative bliss while also feeling sharp back pain. In fact it seems to me that it’s usually the case that we experience a mix of feelings, and only in exceptional moments is it all pain or all pleasure.
[quote=“LawnMower, post:66, topic:27990”]
How I get through this to avoid overthinking, is to go with the first feeling. ie, ‘I feel like having some cake, the second feeling of guilt whilst I’m just about to eat it, get’s discarded instantaneously’
[/quote]
Well it is impossible to feel two different and contradictory mental reactions at exactly the same time and from the same place. You can feel one feeling and then moments later the opposite feeling. You can’t have white and black at exactly the same time and place. It is either one or another. It invites an idea of an Atman as in Sati the fisherman’s son sutta.
When I was 10 years old, many moons ago, I was sat on a school bus without seatbelts.
No adults was on the bus except for the driver.
The bus without any warning suddenly skidded off the road and landed on its side, that was the day I learnt you can have more than one feeling at the same time.
As I got older and played this back in my mind, I learnt a lot from that experience, more so when I passed my driving test and ended up in the exact same position some 7 years later, within 20 meters of where the school bus left the road.
So it’s possible to learn a lot from experiences, though I wouldn’t wish those kind of learning experiences on anybody!
I think this reveals something of the nature of vinnana. A karmically loaded sense- vinnana (kamma vinnana) establishes when there is an engaged attention for something (MN28). Something has grasped minds attention. This is causes by avijja and abhisankara. At that moment mind is, as it were, fully focused on that one thing. Its attention is towards it. It makes contact with it. With a certain smell, sound, visual, tactile sensation etc. It is also caught by it. Here is an element of fettering.
This is typical for all vinnana that arise with avijja and (abhi)sankhara as condition.
When attention shifts and mind is caught by something else, that becomes focus of attention and is vividly aware. Like attention is a flashlight that shifts and enlightends this or that alternately.
I think it is true that mind cannot have that kind of engaged attention for more then one thing. But this is a situation of a defiled mind. I do not believe this is the characteristic of mind but of an engaged mind, of mind with kamma vinnana’s. Karmically loaded vinnana’s. Those are the vinnana’s as third factor in Paticca Samupadda. Those arise with abhisankhara as condition, karmically loaded formations.
If one becomes like that consciously aware of something, focused upon something, and mind attention is caught by something, it is like there is no attention for somethting else. This is a kamma vinnana. Not just a vinnana. SN12.61 describes the mind with kamma vinnana as the monkey-mind. It grasps this and then that. In this light i feel it is true that we experience one kind of feeling and object at a time.
But, i do not believe one can say that such engaged defiled sense contact is the only way to know things. Kamma vinnana and vinnana must be distinguished. An arahant has no kamma vinnana but still vinnana’s.
If you are mindful you can see this moment that mind is caught by something. But mind is not always caught by something. But IF it is, then i feel it is appropriate to say that is has only one sense-object, and feeling at a time.