Do You Really Want To Be Enlightened?

Well said. There is a lot of truth in this, we all want to become enlightened or we would not be interested in talking about meditating and the fruits of the practice. Of course we should actually be getting in and doing the practice instead of wasting time talking about it online but hey, human nature and all that…

At first you do read to understand but you get to a point where you pretty well have it mapped out in your head as to the steps you need to take but we get bogged down in the nitty gritty and progress is slow and so of course we impatiently want to rush to the end and as a result of the failure to immediately gain our desires instead of knuckling down and practicing harder we procrastinate with online forums instead.

So in many ways, it is time wasted that could be better spent on actual practice, although I must admit I do find inspiration to practice here too. It’s a matter of striking the right balance and staying away from responding to people that are seeking to engage in debate, argument and point scoring and looking instead for the odd pithy comment, that bit of gold among the dross, from a Bhikkhu or other poster that inspires or opens ones mind to greater understanding.

It’s hard to practice in isolation without the benefit of being surrounded by other practitioners in a secluded environment. We need to seek our sense of fellowship through communication platforms that allow contact with others at a distance, so I guess we’ll keep on spending time here or I will anyway in spite of the fact I spend more time here than I really should.

cheers

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This question is discussed in SN 51.15 that the path leading to extinguishment of desire is indeed requiring desire to achieve it :

SN 51.15
Brahmana Sutta: To Unnabha the Brahman

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita’s Park. Then the Brahman Unnabha went to where Ven. Ananda was staying and on arrival greeted him courteously. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Ananda: “Master Ananda, what is the aim of this holy life lived under Gotama the contemplative?”

“Brahman, the holy life is lived under the Blessed One with the aim of abandoning desire.”

“Is there a path, is there a practice, for the abandoning of that desire?”

“Yes, there is a path, there is a practice, for the abandoning of that desire.”

“What is the path, the practice, for the abandoning of that desire?”

“Brahman, there is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence… concentration founded on intent… concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. This, Brahman, is the path, this is the practice for the abandoning of that desire.”

“If that’s so, Master Ananda, then it’s an endless path, and not one with an end, for it’s impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire.”

“In that case, brahman, let me question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: Didn’t you first have desire, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the park,’ and then when you reached the park, wasn’t that particular desire allayed?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Didn’t you first have persistence, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the park,’ and then when you reached the park, wasn’t that particular persistence allayed?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Didn’t you first have the intent, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the park,’ and then when you reached the park, wasn’t that particular intent allayed?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Didn’t you first have [an act of] discrimination, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the park,’ and then when you reached the park, wasn’t that particular act of discrimination allayed?”

“Yes, sir.”

“So it is with an arahant whose mental effluents are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis. Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. Whatever persistence he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular persistence is allayed. Whatever intent he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular intent is allayed. Whatever discrimination he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular discrimination is allayed. So what do you think, brahman? Is this an endless path, or one with an end?”

“You’re right, Master Ananda. This is a path with an end, and not an endless one. Magnificent, Master Ananda! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Ananda — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Ananda remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge, from this day forward, for life.”

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Thank you for your response. Here’s another question:
If enlightenment is the realization of non-self, how do we attain it through self-effort alone?

I’ve come to formulate a sentence like this to reach something i don’t know what is:

_

I am going to make this old heart so big and swollen that it can’t take any more, and then i am going to explode it into kazillion pieces

_

Sitting here minding my own business, which is to look after so called “crazy people” - It’s early in the morning and all of my younger team mates are still resting sound and therefore the world hasn’t gone totally crazy yet … :wink:
I do wonder about who is having the biggest issues, we or them, you see … :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

Okay, so I got it! - sila samadhi panna … that’s okay, and I know i will be quite fine with this for the rest of my life, but then again it’s so bloody boring here, and this old self just knows the fun of being slightly messy, and that is a bit fun too - I mean: Is this all there is, and if I go on being nice i will possibly be reborn into a better destination … maybe maybe … But i still have to come back to this “bullshit” sometime in the future, and maybe just maybe be so lucky to be born when this teaching is around …

But still there is this feeling of something or nothing left

Anyway it’s fun to watch the mind trowing oldies on the present table, like this song - had craving for this music in my rebel days :slight_smile:

We still got a long way to go
We still got a long way to go
We all got a long way to go

What’s keeping us apart isn’t selfishness
What’s holding us together isn’t love
Listen to the man who’s been
Touched all his life
Yes he’s the one they call the fool

Where is the saviour of the sidewalk life
And the road that takes us to the crusades
I’ve seen the shadows
As they’re moving in my sleep
Leading the blind poet to his grave

We still got a long way to go
We still got a long way to go
Yes we all got a long way to go

Please don’t waste your energy on me my friend
Cause we still got a long way to go
We’ll meet again some day
But right now just go away
Cause I still got a long way to go

The silence is speaking
So why am I weeping
I guess I love it
I love it to death

We still got a long way to go
Yes we still got a long way to go
Yes we all got a long way to go

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In SN 45.2 the Buddha said that the cultivation of Eightfold Noble Path is not based on oneself alone, but it is cultivated by relying on good friendship too:

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.2/en/bodhi

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OK. Thank you.

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The question that i would ask my self is: am i ready for enlightenment?
When the truth is revealed; what if i’m not?

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Lord Buddha said a lot of different things about what was important and essential for practice, so it makes not so much sense to pick one aspect and think: That’s it!

We might be cherry picking …, i believe and are drawing aspects of teaching out of what was meant for someone there and then, not here and now …

He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It’s to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. SN12.15

With metta

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What does your Ariya friends think, then? :slightly_smiling_face:

With metta

Only on unsuccessful attainment of Jhana; falling backward into coarse nothingness, due to external “vibration” impact accompanied with fear, could be scary!
“Noise, the thorn of Jhana 1”

As for reverse mode after Jhana, no issue for a bhikkhu. Even lay disciple, only brushes through in the beginning, nothing scary about it.
But when he goes back to the worldly life, would require much preparations work especially when there are unfinish commitments. The buoyancy is a struggle; once it is over, i hope everything goes just fine.

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… i have never heard of a taste of nibbana, or stream entry, as being accompanied by screams or other signs of terror. :slight_smile: One might want to ask one’s teacher if that has validity or significance.

edit: much respect by the way for identifying fears.

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:slight_smile: i am not an eternalist, or an ahniliationist, not offended.

Is phrase “existential terror” maybe seemingly applicable to one’s issue with cessation?

I suggested sharing my observation not because i had thought you might not understand, but because that particular observation might be amusing or suggest beneficial conversation between you; but you and your teacher probably have developed or experienced specific communication techniques or style or context which are effective and beneficial for one.

:anjal: :meditation:

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I like your reply :smiley:

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Yeah, guess most of us heard about and maybe experienced moments like that, but do that kind monk know what the final letting go looks like, I would like to know …!?!

I can’t wrap my head around that possible fruition being scary, or for that matter any blissful right at the moment of realizing this, because it’s not of my conscious choosing.

One thing I’m more sure about is that the world it’self has no interest at all for me becoming totally free, so if one doesn’t get an answer from one who really has done it, it will be just speculations - and doubt leads only to more doubt aka: suffering

Have fun! friend @Sineru

:slight_smile:

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Fear is arises because we cling to a self. We cling to a self because we think the five aggregates are self. As long as the five aggregates are seen to either not be self (or in other words, seen arising and passing away, rapidly), there wont be a fear for something that didn’t exist and never did, in the first place.

with metta

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Question:
If I wake up tomorrow as a wise being - what would the world look like to me and what to do?

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Ordain? Just kidding, I’ll ask him.

What is correct action, since the answer given nows itself it isn’t real, and dear Ajahn maybe was in a hurry answering …
I, ll pickup at a later instant with a better suggestion from another wise monk I know about, and had maybe podered a tinzy bit more on that question
Thanks anyway :slight_smile:

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No worries mate