Does “all Dhammas” include Nibbāna?

OK, it seems like we’re at least getting somewhere now, Ajahn! :slight_smile: Because you agree that nibbāna at least logically isn’t a self, that logically it is anattā. So if you don’t mind, I’ll break my promise of my previous reply being my last. :slight_smile:

I introduced the unicorn just to clarify the logic, to make clear that the self doesn’t exist. But to many people—in a sense for everybody but arahants—it is not so clear that the self doesn’t exist. So the comparison with a unicorn only goes so far, and likewise with the BMW. When it comes to the self, people actually have “lost the plot”! Hence “it just sounds weird” is true for the unicorn and BMW, but for the self I disagree.

The question then becomes, is it possible for at least some people to wrongly see a self/I/mine in nibbāna? It seems the suttas indicate that it is. I mentioned MN1, which is very direct. Also there is DN15, where the absence of all vedānas—which is just the same as the absence of all viññāṇa or all phenomena—is taken as a self. So apparently yes, people can take this as a self. Hence there may also be a practical need to call it anattā.

Perhaps such a view makes no sense to you, but I would argue that in that case it is you who may be relying too much on logic. Because when it comes to a self/my/I, the mind just isn’t logical and will look for it everywhere, even if it defies logic.

But regardless, who is to say that with sabbe dhammā anattā the Buddha wasn’t just making sure he was being logically consistent? Sure, the dhamma is about more than logic, but it also doesn’t contradict logic. In fact, it is very logical.

To say sabbe dhammā anattā would also have been useful for other reasons, perhaps especially for people that did not understand nibbāna. Because if the Buddha would just have said sabbe sankhārā anattā then by analogy of the previous two characteristics, people could easily conclude that the asankhata was a self. In fact, that seems a very logical and natural conclusion to me. And I realize now is probably the main reason I think sabbe dhammā should include nibbāna.

We have to keep in mind here also that most people listening to this would not have understood what nibbāna is. With that in mind, we can also take the teachings on anattā in a different way. If people believed that nibbāna was a kind of eternal mind, that would effectively be a self. The Buddha to indicate that it is anatta, would have countered such ideas. What I’m getting at is, to say that nibbāna is anatta is effectively almost another way to say it is exactly the absence of all phenomena. Because any kind of existing phenomenon would be worth calling a self.

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Yes, this is clearly possible. Yet I do not think the solution is to call it nonself, which to my mind just makes the matter worse. It is enough to regard it as the absence of phenomena. I suppose we will just have to disagree on this. :blush:

Yes, the Dhamma is logical, but logic is not enough. It also needs to be meaningful to people. That was the point I was trying to make.

I like this point! But again, what exactly is the relationship between saṅkhāra and dhamma? Yes, dhamma includes the saṅkhata and the asaṅkhata. Yet it seems asaṅkhata only refers to arahantship. And so this does not really help us. Or are you able to make a good case that saṅkhata includes parinibbāna?

But again, there is no need to speak of parinbbāna, nibbāna itself is enough. All such theories of an eternal mind are based on experiences in the present life. If you can show that these present life experiences are nonself, then there is no need to say anything about parinibbāna.

Presumably you mean any kind of permanent or fixed phenomenon.

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But is it possible to experience the absence of phenomena?
What does the experience of the absence of phenomena consist of?

So, you do not see arahantship as something that is arising and ceasing? Because that are the characteristics of asankhata.

Hi Ajahn. Supposing you mean asankhata, the end of existence (i.e. parinibbāna) seems to me to be asankhata too. This is indicated for example in Iti43 and more clearly in Iti44, where the cessation of existence is called padaṁ asankhataṁ. (Ven Sujato translates “the state” but it is “this (etad) state”, referring back to the previous verse on the cessation of existence.)

AN3.47 is also interpreted easiest when taking asankhata to be parinibbāna.

I haven’t really looked at this in detail, nor do I plan to. But it seems unnatural to exclude parinibbāna from asankhata, which means the absence of anything created/conditioned/formed.

Still, even if it were to only refer to arahantship, this is also one of the nibbāna dhatus, the cessation of craving. So then I would make similar arguments with this in mind, still including this nibbāna dhatu in sabbe dhamma.

Yes, thanks.

You can go through a cessation of all experience, which is “experiencing” the absence of phenomena. I’m not sure how this relates to the matter at hand, though.

But this would not be the experiencing of the absence of phenomena, it would be the experiencing of phenomena after the absence of phenomena.

In the absence of phenomena there is no experience - it is impossible to experience the absence of phenomena simply because there would be no experience.

That’s why the question arises: what does the experience of the absence of phenomena consist of?

Namo Buddhaya!

I think this disagreeable.

There are two irreducible categories
Sankhata
Asankhata

Arahantship is a word we use in the presence of the constructed.

Asankhata is what makes sannavedaniyairodha & parinibbana possible.

When one talks about a person absorbed in sannavedaniyanirodha he is absorbed not in dependence on something constucted or cognized but he is absorbed in dependence on something.

Homage to you, O thoroughbred man. Homage to you, O superlative man — you of whom we don’t know even what it is dependent on which you’re absorbed.'"

"There is the case, Sandha, where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception[2] of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist; the perception of liquid with regard to liquid… the perception of fire with regard to fire… the perception of wind with regard to wind… the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of space with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of space… the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness… the perception of the sphere of nothingness with regard to the sphere of nothingness… the perception of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception with regard to the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception… the perception of this world with regard to this world… the next world with regard to the next world…. and whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect: the perception of that has ceased to exist. Sandha Sutta: To Sandha

It is further explained here

“Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man’s Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth… nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient.”

“But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?”

“‘The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding’: One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, ‘The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding’: One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of ‘The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.’” Sariputta Sutta: With Sariputta

This is absorbtion based on the nirodhaprinciple

Having attained this one proclaims the ayatana

There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress. Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)

Note this is the dukkhanirodha that is directly experienced as the Third Noble Truth.

The Asankhata is that very ayatana in dependence on which one is absorbed and just this is the dukkhaparinibbana too.

However one should not think that any mind or percipience faculties persist after final extinguishment and asankhata is what makes the extinguishment possible.

Nonself as part of the Three Characteristics is usually referred to in the scriptures in the phrase: All conditioned phenomena are impermanent, all conditioned phenomena are dukkha, all things are nonself (anattā).

This passage by the Buddha shows that anattā has a range of meaning broader than anicca and dukkha. The first two clauses state that all conditioned phenomena (saṅkhāra or saṅkhata-dhamma) are impermanent and subject to stress, whereas the third clause states that all ’dhammas’ – all things – both conditioned phenomena and the Unconditioned (saṅkhata-dhamma and asaṅkhata-dhamma, or saṅkhāra and visaṅkhāra), are nonself.

And the following passage in the Parivāra of the Vinaya Piṭaka clearly reiterates that Nibbāna is included in the clause ’all things are nonself’: All formations are impermanent, dukkha, and nonself; Nibbāna and designations are nonself.[90]
(Ch. 6. Nibbāna: the Supreme Peace - Buddhadhamma)

I want to explain a point which people overlook.

Suppose you can read people’s minds and you see with your eye the body of a person absorbed in sannavedaniyanirodha.

If you were to direct your mind to reading their mind in a way that allows you to accurately infer & imagine their constructed percipience, you would not be able to know it because in as far as you are concerned their mental activity has ceased.

You can’t imagine or cognize with mind the cessation of mind as the unconstructed element because your mind is constructed and it can’t model or cognize the unconstructed element as you could someone’s perception of ‘red’ or ‘blue’ or any feeling state.

It is something you have to directly experience to know it as it is because it is a categorically different reality discerned as the cessation of the constructed states.

The existence of this person, at this point, is only affirmed by the existence of your subjective percipience of form.

His subjective experience has ceased based on the asankhata. In as far as he is concerned the world has ended, and the only basis we have for talking about this person at this point is the presence of another person’s percipience which is effectively another world to what ceased for one absorbed based on the asankhata.

Now suppose you also sit down and enter cessation of perception & feeling. Now your subjective experience of the world you were describing has ended too. And in as far as you are concerned the world has ended, you were not in the world, you did not come out of the world and the world wasn’t yours.

Any further affirmation about any of ya’ll existence will require presence of a 3rd set of aggregates which would conceive & perceive the form described as the two thoroughbreds absorbed in dependence on the asankhata.

It is important to understand the implications of this.

When you emerge from the nirodhasamadhi, then people might ask whether you were percipient or not percipient.

Now in as far as you are concerned there was no self or anything that can be grasped to be personal, there was an emptiness of anything like subjective experience or temporal existence of anything. And so you can’t answer categorically yes or no.

  • If you say you were not percipient then people will draw the wrong conclusion thinking you fainted or something.
  • If you say that you were percepient then people will think you had a subjective experience of some sort.

And so you have to answer as Sariputta did

I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth… nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

“But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?”

“‘The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding’: One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, ‘The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding’: One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of ‘The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.’”

You proclaim a new irreducible category of perception.

However this question can not arise for someone who has attained parinibbana.

Contrary to describing someone in sannavedaniyanirodha, whose life force & faculties can thus be affirmed, one who has attained final extinguishment can not be described even on this basis anymore. And so there is nothing further to the narrative about that person even in the presence of any 3rd party aggregates.

Only eternalists go ahead in further describing a mental faculty or a soul of some sort which persists in this world or another world/dimension after parinibbana, they cling to the narrative because they relish existence.

Annihilationists are averse to existence and don’t mind it’s altogether cessation, and so in this way annihilationist is closer to the truth because to him cessation of everything subjectively experienced is agreeable.

”When someone has such a view, you can expect that they will be repulsed by continued existence, and they will not be repulsed by the cessation of continued existence.” https://theemptyrobot.com/texts/tipitaka/sutta-pitaka/anguttara-nikaya/AN10/29-pathamakosalasutta/

Thanks! I think now is the right time to let this discussion be. I can’t quite see it now, but it’s conceivable I will change my mind on this. Thanks for being a good friend in the Dhamma! :slightly_smiling_face:

LOL! The salient feature of arahantship is the attainment of Nibbāna. This attainment is final. The defilements are gone once and for all. There is no more rebirth. Which means that these things are unconditoned in the sense that they don’t rely on conditions for their continuation. In this sense arahantship is unconditioned.

True, the arahant still consists of five khandhas, and these are certainly conditioned. But arahantship concerns the attainment of Nibbāna, which is asaṅkhata. The five khandhas are just a remnant from previous kamma.

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I am glad you are having fun Venerable Sir.

But do not think that i won’t notice that you switched the terms on me.

Now to the dismantling of wrong views.

The designation of nibbana is the removal of taints

This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way SuttaCentral

It is attained by directing the mind to the deathless

Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ mn64

and this is a state of samadhi

Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’

That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And they wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And yet they would still perceive.” SuttaCentral

It is perceived as bhavanirodha

But at that time what did Reverend Sāriputta perceive?”

“One perception arose in me and another perception ceased: ‘The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.’SuttaCentral

In as far as the removal of taints goes that is not the designation of the term asankhata.

Does the arahant attain this removal of taints? Yes

Is arahantship the referent of the term asankhata? No

Is the arahantship a term for nibbana?
Yes in that one who has attained arahantship has removed taints.

Is arahantship attained based on arahantship as a term for nibbana? No.

In dependence on what does the removal of taints occur? In dependence on a direct experience of cessation as bhavanirodha.

In dependence on what does direct experience of cessation occur? In dependence on the unconstructed. If there was no unconstructed then the cessation of the constructed would not be discerned.

Therefore the referent of the asankhata is neither the removal of taints nor arahantship.

In general asankhata refers to something apart from the constructed and is delineated from the term cessation but not separated from it.

There are two elements
Constructed & Unconstructed

There is no third nibbana or arahantship element. And arahantship is an entirely constructed predicament and is never called unconstructed in the texts.

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Cannot be. In your own view of mere cessation arhantship and even Nibbana ceases . That does not match with the characteristics of asankhata according EBT.