As the title says… when someone has experiential understanding of dependent origination, do they automatically understand rebirth as a result? Or is it possible for such a person to still doubt rebirth?
Would a yes or no answer convince you ? How can you trust it ?
Predicting that discussion is about to follow, I’m moving this question away from Q&A. Only questions that can be directly answered here please.
Let’s put it this way… Do you know of any Saint/ Messiah/ Enlightened one, who having put in the years of hard work (that we haven’t) to understand the Meaning of Life, did not teach Rebirth?
Since all the books containing the distilled Higher Wisdom of the human race across cultures feature Rebirth in one way or another, anyone suggesting otherwise needs to display some pretty strong spiritual credentials first…
Understanding Dependent Origination enables Stream Entry, which is the first step on the supramundane path. At this time, though the Stream enterer may not have personal knowledge of Rebirth, they have implicit confidence in the Buddha’s teachings… which includes Rebirth. The actual knowledge of past lives and the full understanding of Rebirth forms part of the 3 higher knowledges achieved at the time of becoming an Arahant… which comes at the end of the Path.
Yes, thank you for articulating this. We are indeed talking about stream entry here. I was just thinking that since dependent origination points to the conditions that lead to birth (among all else), one might assume that understanding how birth comes to be would lead to understanding rebirth. But I wasn’t sure, hence I asked the question. I’ll look into the three higher knowledges, thank you for the pointer
Incorrect, the knowledge required for stream entry is that of impermanence. Practically speaking knowledge of DO is not necessary for progress on the path, but knowledge of impermanence is, and here Ajahn Chah points out the error of intellectual goals :
Mendicants, when a noble disciple has quelled five dangers and threats, has the four factors of stream-entry, and has clearly seen and comprehended the noble cycle with wisdom, they may, if they wish, declare of themselves: ‘I’ve finished with rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. I’ve finished with all places of loss, bad places, the underworld. I am a stream-enterer! I’m not liable to be reborn in the underworld, and am bound for awakening.’
And what is the noble cycle that they have clearly seen and comprehended with wisdom?A noble disciple carefully and properly attends to dependent origination itself …This is the noble cycle that they have clearly seen and comprehended with wisdom.
25. Okkanta-samyutta — Entering 1-10
All these ten suttas refer to knowledge of the cycle of impermanence as the condition for stream entry.
I think we are splitting hairs here… whatever is dependently originated is by definition impermanent… and phenomena are impermanent precisely because they are dependently originated.
Sirs, anything that is created, conditioned, chosen, and dependently originated is impermanent. And what’s impermanent is suffering. And what’s suffering is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self. That’s my view, sirs.