Descriptions of dukkha include ( biological ) birth, aging and death. See for example Sariputta’s elaboration of aspects of dukkha in MN141 ( referenced below ).
So does the cessation of dukkha include, or lead to, the cessation of ( biological ) birth, aging and death?
It could be argued that dukkha results from not wanting aging and death, rather than the biological processes themselves, though this “not wanting” aspect seems to be addressed separately in descriptions of dukkha, eg here in MN141: “In sentient beings who are liable to grow old … fall ill … die … experience sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress, such a wish arises: ‘Oh, if only we were not liable to experience sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress!”
yes, that’s certainly how I understand it. In answer to my first question on SC, Sujato wrote that the craving that you eliminate when you become an arahant is the craving to be reborn. It’s somewhere in this post: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/does-the-pali-canon-convey-the-authentic-teachings-of-the-buddha
The end of dukkha is parinibbanna, when you disappear. Even for an arahant, when they are still alive, existence is ‘dukkha arising, dukkha disappearing’ (somewhere from a collection of early verses, it would be interesting if someone knew the reference).
Basically, dukkha ends because you attain parinibbana and disappear for ever. Till then, for as long as you are in samsara, life is dukkha.
With the complete eradication and cessation of ignorance, reaction (conditioning) ceases;
with the cessation of reaction (conditioning), consciousness ceases;
with the cessation of consciousness, mind-body cease;
with the cessation of mind-body, the six senses cease;
with the cessation of the six senses, contact ceases;
with the cessation of contact, seansation ceases;
with the cessation of sensation, craving and aversion cease;
with the cessation of craving and aversion, clinging ceases;
with the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases;
with the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases;
with the cessation of birth, ageing and death cease, together
with sorrow, lamentation, physical and mental sufferings and tribulations.
I think that for EBT, if nothing is dear to you in this life than you’ll not be reborn because it’s craving that causes rebirth. Though I am not sure that ‘nothing is dear’ is the appropriate expression because arahants are said to have a lot of metta, so the wellbeing of others should be very dear to them.
Interesting point, though as noted in the OP, this aspect seems to be covered separately in the description of dukkha, eg “separation from the liked is suffering”, and “In sentient beings who are liable to grow old … fall ill … die … experience sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress, such a wish arises: ‘Oh, if only we were not liable to experience sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress!”
Why are ( biological ) birth, aging and death added to the list as specific components of dukkha if it is really only about the mental suffering involved? And in particular, why is birth included if dukkha is only about mental suffering, given that none of us remember the experience?
‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: what is the source of this suffering, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced?
“As he thoroughly investigates he understands thus: ‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has birth as its source
It would be interesting to find this reference. Whether an Arahant still experiences dukkha is a pivotal point here, since it goes to the nature of dukkha.
Thanks. This quote seems to confirm the idea that the cessation of suffering includes/requires the cessation of birth - presumably future birth, since we have already been born in this life and can do nothing about that.
Also it’s interesting that dukkha is “headed” by aging and death here, suggesting that these physical processes are the main source of dukkha? As opposed to the obviously mental aspects of suffering described, like sadness, not getting what you want, getting what you don’t want, etc.
If there is no death or danger of death what soever. what ever we do we don’t die.
Is it possible for the buddha to define his teaching.?
Edit:
lets say for the sake of an argument that christians are correct and some being falls in to hell for ever. now, that being knowing that there
is no death from that state ,would it even occur to him that cessation of suffering is possible.
I wonder if I might point out that it is ‘old age’ not ‘ageing’ that is considered suffering in the sutta given in the opening thread (and afaik in all of the general formulations of the first noble truth):
And what is the noble truth of suffering? Rebirth is suffering; old age is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are suffering; association with the disliked is suffering; separation from the liked is suffering; not getting what you wish for is suffering. In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.
I think so, because there are other aspects of dukkha, so it is not only about old age and death. In other words eternal life wouldn’t solve all our problems, it would extend them indefinitely.
As for your earlier question there is clearly mental anguish associated with old age and death. But would old age and death still be suffering if the mental anguish had ceased? I’m not sure it’s clear.
conceptual unsatisfactoriness: rounds of births and death, existential angst
Suffering of suffering (dukkha dukkha): physical (biological- aging, disease, death) pain.
Suffering of change (Viparinama dukkha): pain from loss/attachment dyad.
Suffering of fabrications (sankhara dukkha): dukkha from insight: five aggregates are impermanent, therefore dukkha.
Stream entrant- only 7 lifetimes at most, left- therefore a vast amount of suffering is cut away.
non-returner: suffering from craving/attachments and other defilements like aversion comes to an end.
arahanth: suffering from conceit, desire for existence, agitation, restlessness etc comes to an end.
Arahanths also feel painful feelings (vedana) so their suffering, while milder (possibly due to four foundations of mindfulness work on feelings, and lack of I’m suffering, this suffering is mine), will experience some pain. However the bigger picture is that compared to the samsara journey it is an inestimably small amount of time.
Well remembered! So it would seem that dukkha-dukkha continues for the Arahant, but the other two types of dukkha have ceased. Though I wonder if sankhara-dukkha is more about the inherent conditionality of our experience, the continual uncertainty, the insubstantiality.
Is it correct to say that dukkha-dukkha is equivalent to the first arrow in the Arrow Sutta?
Though I wonder if sankhara-dukkha is more about the inherent conditionality of our experience, the continual uncertainty, the insubstantiality.
Is it correct to say that dukkha-dukkha is equivalent to the first arrow in the Arrow Sutta?
Sankhara dukkha -‘sabbe sankhara anicca, dukkha, anatta’ all fabrications are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. Conditional and insubstantial are also applicable.
Here the first arrow would be body, life events etc. apart from the mind’s reaction to it. It would seem it is dukke dukkha. However can we have suffering of change without the object of suffering included as part of it (ie- life event)!?
death is the chief fear for living beings. if there is no danger of death, it would be very hard convince a being born in the higher deva realms to follow the N8FW.
forget devas, it would be very hard to even convince a young man in his prime
