Does the desire for popularity, fame, respect come under Bhava-taṇhā?

Q & A
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I can’t think of anyplace else. Surely it wouldn’t come under Vibhava-taṇhā, even Kāma-taṇhā doesn’t seem to work well. Wanting fame is like wanting to exist as a famous person right? Would that be Bhava-taṇhā? Are there any suttas that may directly/indirectly touch on this?

Thanks, :blush:.

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Suttas regarding fame, honor and praise.

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That sounds about right. You could also say it’s kama-tanha in that one experiences fame/popularity/respect based upon sense-contact: hearing people praise you, seeing people act deferentially toward you, etc. Then you crave for those sights and sounds.

That samyutta clearly lays out the extreme danger of attachment to gains, honor, and praise. Here’s a summary of all 43 suttas. Notice how even an arahant can be obstructed by them!

SN 17 has 43 suttas and is the primary collection of suttas on gains, honor, & praise (lābhasakkārasiloko). The Buddha repeatedly exhorts the monks to train themselves: “We will give up arisen gains, honor, & praise and we won’t let them occupy our minds.”

  • They are or compared to: brutal, savage, vicious, cruel, obstruction, hook, harpoon, briar patch, dung, bolt of lightning, poisoned arrow, disease, gale-force winds (1-9); a rope that cuts through flesh down through the bone (28-29); a banana tree, bamboo, reed, or pregnant mule that sows the seed of its own destruction. (35)
  • Obsession with honor, dishonor, or both lead to a bad rebirth. (10)
  • A mendicant wouldn’t tell a deliberate lie even for the sake of [wealth, infinite wealth, any material thing, life, the most beautiful woman] but they may later tell a deliberate lie for the sake of gains, honor, & praise. (11-20)
  • Even being alone with the most beautiful woman, she might not occupy your mind. But gains, honor, & praise would still occupy it. (21-22)
  • If one’s child were to become a mendicant, one should wish they don’t encounter gains, honor, & praise before reaching the goal. (23-24)
  • A true brahmin understands the origin, passing away, gratification, danger, and escape in gains, honor, & praise. An untrue brahmin does not. (25-27)
  • Even for an arahant, though gains, honor, & praise won’t obstruct their mind’s liberation, they will be obstructed from dwelling in blissful meditations. (30)
  • The overwhelming of Devadatta’s mind by gains, honor, & praise is what led him to split the Sangha and what cut off his skillful root/qualities. (32-34)
  • The monks report that Prince Ajātasattu went to attend to and offer Devadatta food. The Buddha exhorts the monks not to envy Devadatta’s gains, honor, & praise. They will lead to his decline in wholesome qualities. “If they were to pop a boil on a wild dog’s nose, it would get even wilder.” (36)
  • A mendicant wouldn’t tell a deliberate lie even for the sake of a family member, yet would do so for gains, honor, & praise. (37-43)
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Suppose a person was famous but meets a hard time. This person is not popular at all anymore. This person feels more and more lost. He/she becomes depressed. This person even sees death as the end of his/her suffering. He/she develops a desire for death as the escape of suffering.

I believe one can say that this person has still a desire for popularity, fame, respect. But while it is not satisfied it becomes connected to a desire to die and escape the darkness that has arisen.

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I had the same thought, unfulfilled desire for fame in extreme situations may provoke vibhava tanha. The observation that desire for popularity is connected with bhava tanha seems to be right, but it is too general, and perhaps more direct dependence is between sakkayaditthi and desire for fame. Apart the very mistake on ariyan level, usually self-image created is also little bit ( or more then little bit) unrealistic on puthujjana level, so being famous confirms and strengthen self.

But even here one can imagine the situation where one desire to be famous for being totally indifferent to fame.:grinning_face:

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I think also it could be stated in more general terms. As far as I understand asminana is the most fundamental determination. But it could be associated with any kind of tanha. So in the most general way when there is asmimana there could be desire for popularity, fame and respect. But this applies to any unwholesome mental state.

Udāna 11:

Pleasurable is dispassion in the world,
The getting beyond sensuality.
But the putting away of the conceit ‘I am’
– this is the highest pleasure.

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Technically even non returners still have conceit…

The Ten Fetters
The standard Sutta Pitaka list includes:

  • Five Lower Fetters (abandoned by Anagamis/Non-returners):

    1. Identity view (sakkāya-diṭṭhi): Belief in a permanent self.

    2. Doubt (vicikicchā): Uncertainty regarding the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.

    3. Adherence to rites/rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso): Belief that strict rules alone purify.

    4. Sensual desire (kāmacchando): Craving for sensory pleasures.

    5. Ill will (vyāpādo): Anger, aversion, or hatred.

  • Five Higher Fetters (abandoned by Arahants):
    6. Desire for form (rūparāgo): Attachment to fine-material existence (e.g., fine-material jhanas).
    7. Desire for formless (arūparāgo): Attachment to immaterial existence.
    8. Conceit (māna): The subtle sense of “I am”.
    9. Restlessness (uddhacca): Mental agitation.
    10. Ignorance (avijjā): Not knowing the Four Noble Truths.

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