Does vedana mean body sensation?

Vedana includes both bodily and mentally derived sensations, as this sutta makes explicitly clear.

SN 48.37 dutiya-vibhaṅga-suttaṃ
SN 48.37 dutiya-vibhaṅga-suttaṃ
SN 48.37 second-analysis [of 5 faculties] -discourse

“pañc’-imāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni.
“[There are] five-(of)-these, ***********, faculties.
katamāni pañca?
which five?
sukh’-indriyaṃ,
(the) pleasure-faculty.
dukkh’-indriyaṃ,
(the) pain-faculty.
so-manass’-indriyaṃ,
(the) good-mental-[state]-faculty.
do-manass’-indriyaṃ,
(the) bad-mental-[state]-faculty.
upekkh’-indriyaṃ —
(the) equanimity-faculty.

“katamañca, bhikkhave, sukh’-indriyaṃ?
“what, ************, (is the) pleasure-faculty?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave,
Whatever ***, ************,
kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ,
bodily pleasure,
kāyikaṃ sātaṃ,
bodily satisfaction,
kāya-samphassajaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ —
Bodily-contact-produced pleasurable satisfying feeling –
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sukh’-indriyaṃ.
that (is) called, *********, pleasure-faculty.

“katamañca, bhikkhave, dukkh’-indriyaṃ?
“what, ************, (is the) pain-faculty?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave,
Whatever ***, ************,
kāyikaṃ dukkhaṃ,
bodily pain,
kāyikaṃ a-sātaṃ,
bodily dis-satisfaction,
kāya-samphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ a-sātaṃ vedayitaṃ —
Bodily-contact-produced painful un-satisfying feeling –
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkh’-indriyaṃ.
that (is) called, *********, pain-faculty.

“katamañca, bhikkhave, so-manass-indriyaṃ?
“what, ************, (is the) good-mental-[state]-faculty?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave,
Whatever ***, ************,
cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ,
mental pleasure,
cetasikaṃ sātaṃ,
mental satisfaction,
mano-samphassajaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ —
mind-contact-produced pleasurable satisfying feeling –
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, so-manass-indriyaṃ.
that (is) called, *********, good-mental-[state]-faculty.

“katamañca, bhikkhave, do-manass-indriyaṃ?
“what, ************, (is the) bad-mental-[state]-faculty?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave,
Whatever ***, ************,
cetasikaṃ dukkhaṃ,
mental pain,
cetasikaṃ a-sātaṃ,
mental dis-satisfaction,
mano-samphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ a-sātaṃ vedayitaṃ —
mind-contact-produced painful dis-satisfying feeling –
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, do-manass-indriyaṃ.
that (is) called, *********, bad-mental-[state]-faculty.

“katamañca, bhikkhave, upekkh’-indriyaṃ?
“what, ************, (is the) equanimity-faculty?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave,
Whatever ***, ************,
kāyikaṃ vā cetasikaṃ vā
bodily or mental **
n’eva-sātaṃ n’ā-sātaṃ vedayitaṃ —
Neither-satisfying nor-non-satisfying-feeling –
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, upekkh’-indriyaṃ.
that (is) called, *********, equanimity-faculty.

(this sutta exactly the same as previous sutta SN 48.36, replacing last line with this ending)
“tatra, bhikkhave,
“Therein, monks,
yañca sukh-indriyaṃ yañca so-manass-indriyaṃ,
the pleasure-faculty and-the good-mental-[state]-faculty,
sukhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā.
{should be seen as} pleasant ** feeling
tatra, bhikkhave,
“Therein, monks,
yañca dukkh-indriyaṃ yañca do-manass-indriyaṃ,
The pain-faculty and-the bad-mental-[state]-faculty,
dukkhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā.
{should be seen as} painful ** feeling.
tatra, bhikkhave,
“Therein, monks,
yadidaṃ upekkh-indriyaṃ,
the equanimity-faculty,
A-dukkham-a-sukhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā.
{should be seen as} neither-painful-nor-pleasant ** feeling.

imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañc’-indriyānī”ti.
these indeed, ***********, [are the] five-faculties.”

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Vedana/feeling is bodily and mental sensation of 3 types as per Iti. 52:

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: “There are these three feelings. Which three? A feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. These are the three feelings.”

Emotions such as anger, jealousy, joy, etc. aren’t part of the Vedana aggregate, but as part of the Sankhara aggregate. (see Ven. Thanissaro’s “Five Aggregates” for more info.)

Physical pain in a broken leg…
Yes, this is vedana, it is a mental experience (feeling) arising on a physical object (the broken leg).

There are classifications of vedana as threefold, and as fivefold.
In the fivefold classification the feeling (vedana) associated with bodily experiences are classified as “sukha” and “dukkha”, while the feeling (vedana) associated with mental experiences are classified as “somanassa” and “domanassa”. This seems to indicated that bodily experiences are stronger (or more distinct), than mental ones.

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I disagree with your statement.
As I understand S. N. Goenka’s teachings the body sensations are not identical with sankhaaras. The body sensations are subtle bodily experiences, the meditator observes inside or on the surface of his (or her) body, while practicing Vipassana meditation with a well concentrated mind.

Sa.nkhaara-s (formations) are the underlying root-cause for the arising of these sensations, stemming from past kamma. The choice of the word “sensations” focuses on the perception of (bodily) feeling (vedana) in these meditative experiences.

Could you provide sutta references on that fivefold classification? (I know they’re part of the 22 Indriyas in the Abhidhamma but trying to find if the suttas have them). Thanks.

Correct.

The bare stimulus consists of patterns of light hitting the retina. Levels of neurological processors, from just behind the retina to various stages in the brain, detect contrast, color, edges, etc. to form an image that already filters the bare stimuli. Associative processing, involving many parts of the brain, “memory”, etc. then “recognize” the image and the “tree” (concept) is perceived, superimposed on the image. That corresponds to the abdhidhamma take on sanna (perception) – after an initial cognitive process that registers the sensory (5-sense-door) image, a second cognitive process, a purely mental one (6th-sense or “mind-door” event) registers it’s perception, i.e. associates a level of “meaning” to it.

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As far as I can recall, five fold classification is Abhidhamma.
What I can find in Sutta is the following.

Now, lady, how many kinds of feeling are there?"

“These three kinds of feeling: pleasant feeling, painful feeling, & neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling.”

“What is pleasant feeling? What is painful feeling? What is neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?”

“Whatever is experienced physically or mentally as pleasant & gratifying is pleasant feeling. Whatever is experienced physically or mentally as painful & hurting is painful feeling. Whatever is experienced physically or mentally as neither gratifying nor hurting is neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling.”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html

Leg broken, skin cut, etc. on a corpse occasions no vedana, no pain. There has to be a mental functioning (based in / associated with a nervous system). Likewise, in instances like the Vietnamese monk who immolated himself, the mind is totally secluded from the external senses, i.e. in 4th or higher (hard) jhana, where vedana and perception (sanna) etc. doesn’t have a chance to form in the mind.

Long version, possibly some repetition:

Shorter, with “commentary by a Western reporter”:

Still photos, showing the complete lack of reactivity:

Sure. I was only providing an analogy, such as in SN 36.6, to distinguish ‘stress’ from ‘pain’. When a person is stressed & their body becomes tense, this tension is sankhara & not vedana.

This sounds correct. What in reality are sankhaaras Goenka mistakens for vedana.

If so, this sounds like this would occur somewhere between the 3rd and 4th jhana rather than the basic meditation Goenka is instructing.

For the basic meditator, the most coarse/gross sensations are obviously sankharas, caused by residual stress or hindrances.

These sensations are themselves sankharas stemming from past kamma & underlying tendencies. They are not vedana.

For example, the physical stress felt when getting angry is not vedana. It is sankhara.

Sankharas cannot be more subtle than the vedana that arises in relation to those sankharas to the point that the vedana is discerned by the meditator but not the sankhara.

The meditative path in the EBTs is described as the calming of sankhara therefore if vedana always superimposed these sankhara it would be difficult to discern this EBT path.

Regards :slightly_smiling_face:

I have further taught, monk, the gradual cessation of sankhara. In him who has attained the first meditative absorption, speech has ceased. Having attained the second absorption, thought-conception and discursive thinking has ceased. Having attained the third absorption, joy has ceased. Having attained the fourth absorption, inhalation and exhalation have ceased. Having attained the sphere of the infinity of space, perception of form has ceased. Having attained the sphere of the infinity of consciousness, the perception of the sphere of the infinity of space has ceased. Having attained the sphere of no-thingness, the perception of the sphere of infinity of consciousness has ceased. Having attained the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, the perception of the sphere of no-thingness has ceased. Having attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased. In a taint-free monk greed has ceased, hatred has ceased, delusion has ceased. SN 36.11

PED s.v. vedanaa gives only a reference in Visuddhimagga for the fivefold classifiction (Vism 461). I have also noted SN IV 223ff. but this may be in Be edition.
There should be references in the Vedanaa sa.myutta, or in the Pancaka Nipaata of A.nguttara-nikaaya.
Would you say the five-fold classification is later? May be it is later.