"Early Buddhism" and the Spin Zone?

Are you thinking of poor scholarly practices as a ethical issue?
In so in what system of ethics or culture. Western secular ideals of scholarship. EBT?

I guess in part I’m asking about what values of scholarship the students/ scholars on sutttacentral espouse.

This list represents many of my values:
10 Signs of Intellectual Honesty
10 Signs of Intellectual DisHonesty

  1. Do not overstate the power of your argument.
  2. Show a willingness to publicly acknowledge that reasonable alternative viewpoints exist.
  3. Be willing to publicly acknowledge and question one’s own assumptions and biases.
  4. Be willing to publicly acknowledge where your argument is weak.
  5. Be willing to publicly acknowledge when you are wrong.
  6. Demonstrate consistency
  7. Address the argument instead of attacking the person making the argument.
  8. When addressing an argument, do not misrepresent it.
  9. Show a commitment to critical thinking.
  10. Be willing to publicly acknowledge when a point or criticism is good.

To which I add.

  1. Value being, or supporting others to be, honest brokers of information as contrasted with being an advocate of a position. Advocacy is OK too. This applies especially to issues outside of the core dharma such as practical organization of a sanga or temple, engaged Buddhism.
  2. Value and strengthen the viewpoint diversity of a sanga, especially of those who are also committed to similar values of integrity.
  3. Make viewpoint diversity a key requirement for socially engaged action/engaged Buddhism.
  4. Proactively acknowledge weak points or possible objections.
  5. Recognize possible biases and the tendency for bias and design systems of quality control.
  6. Recognize that I’m not that hard to fool.
  7. Embrace a willingness to sort of “bend over backwards” in order to test and verify my work and ideas.
  8. Value internal commitment resulting from free and informed choice. That means honoring other persons way of deciding and decision making.
  9. Test attributions and inferences about other people.
  10. Value mutual learning. Contrast with unilateral control.


Aside:

  • When I speak to Buddhists about things not directly related to practice I often start at level of only having a couple of working theories, one of which might resemble the set of values I’m speaking into.
  • Or what values I would endorse that would likely get a hearing.
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Nice lists!

In the same basic constellation, here are ten ways to have a better conversations that I put together based on a talk by Celeste Headlee. (The indents don’t come through)

Don’t Multitask
Be 100% present in the conversation
Pay attention and be engaged
Don’t Pontificate
Don’t overstate my opinion over the other person’s
Be open to learning about the other person
Assume that I have something to learn
Use open ended questions
Who?
What?
When?
Where?
Why?
How?
Ask them simple questions and let them describe their experience
What was that like?
How did that feel?
Go with the flow of the conversation
Don’t stop listening because I thought of something clever to ask or say and are just waiting for an opportunity to say my thing
Don’t derail the conversation by going back to make my point
When thoughts arise and the golden opportunity passes, let it go
If I don’t know, say “I don’t know”
Err on the side of caution
Don’t equate my experience with theirs
(i.e. Death of a loved one, troubles at home, difficulties at work)
Don’t trump their pain or success with mine
I don’t have to prove how amazing I am or how much I’ve suffered
Don’t repeat myself
Don’t keep rephrasing the same thing over and over
It’s boring, condescending and shows insecurity
Stay out of the weeds
Too many details make people lose interest
People don’t care about the specific years, names, dates or places of the story
They care about me, what we share, how we relate
Listen
Listening is the single most important thing
Prefer to listen rather than talk
If I talk too much:
I grab the center of attention
I become controlling
I don’t have to hear anything I’m not interested in
I can bolster my own identity
Listen with the intent to understand, not with the intent to reply
Be brief
Better to say less rather than keep digging a big hole.

By listening, be prepared to be amazed

In a nutshell, it’s less of “me” and more compassion!

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Yes, “poor scholarship”, to me at least, is synonymous with “lying or bending the truth”. Such as when Elaine Pagels fabricated a Latin footnote which she attributed to Ireneus in her text The Gnostic Gospels (the incident I was referring to in what you quoted).

But in relation to something else you said: I am not actually a scholar or a student, so that may cause me to have some eccentric opinions on what is and what isn’t honest scholarship.

Such as claiming that it is uncontroversial and unconditionally true that the Buddha claimed all that is beautifully spoken as Buddhavacana.

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For instance, in Greek Buddha, a little up on this thread, it is claimed that there are Greek & Persian EBTs. This is essentially a lie regardless of how you spin it, and its published in a respectable book by Princeton University Press. Much like the aforementioned Pagels work.

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I’ll do more than shoot myself. I’ll repost the evidence that has never been addressed by one of her defenders.

The evidence is there, now here twice, for everyone to see. She fabricated a quote from Ireneus out of two unrelated quotes intermixed with her own fancies (inserting the word “unspiritual” as if Ireneus was a Victorian supernaturalist, also changing the context of who exactly Ireneus is addressing very deceptively, all in the interest of spinning a conspiracy theory about Ireneus and the Early Church) and presented it as authentic. The evidence is in the Mankowski responce paper.

The connection between this and efforts to obfuscate the historical narratives surrounding the EBTs are clear as day. Elaine Pagels could well be writing about the wicked Mahākāśyapa & his corrupt early Bhikṣusaṃgha. She’d have as much evidence for that as she does for her early Gnosticism fantasies. So she’d need to fabricate Pāli instead of Latin, but that would be the only real difference.

Last time it was cited here, he was called a pedophile for being Catholic (not by the individual I am responding to here). Hopefully the discourse has improved since then.



Here is the evidence for all to see. You can read and decide for yourself, unless we would rather call the author a pedophile on account of his place of work or cast further ad hominens to further obfuscate what he has laid bare and plain for anyone with critical eyes to see.

This is an example how a scholar like Elaine Pagels can use prominent social hot topics, like feminism, to engineer a narrative that places Gnosticism as the progressive oppressed underdog.

From her wikipedia page:

According to Pagel’s interpretation of an era different from ours, Gnosticism “attracted women because it allowed female participation in sacred rites”.

Now luckily Elaine Pagels herself did not necessarily say something so ridiculous. This is wikipedia.

One only needs to be even vaguely familiar with Gnosticism to know that is was absolutely not pro-woman in any way. Feminist Gnosticism is an invention of the 1970s.

From The Gnostic Gospels:

The feminine element of the divine being is called the Shekhinah and corresponds to God’s genitals in the Kabbalah.

Sophia (Wisdom) is not a part of a divine being. She is an archon who destroyed the original purity of the world by masturbating instead of reproducing with her binary pair (who would have been male).

Much of Gnosticism is about correcting the error that female sexuality brought into the world. Sophia’s masturbation, or solo-reproduction, produces materiality, sin, and nothing other than the Demiurge itself. The wicked God that the Jews made an ancient covenant with.

From Sophia of Jesus Christ

By the will of the Light, I have come from above and I have eluded their [the authorities’] shackles. I have destroyed the actions of the thieves and roused the drop that Sophia sent down, that through me, it would yield a large crop, be made complete and thus never be deficient again. Then through me, the Invincible Redeemer, it might be united, its resplendence could be disclosed, and Sophia would be absolved of that deficiency so that her offspring would not again be deficient, but could then receive dignity and nobility, attain the words of the masculine Light and return to their Father above.

No one responded to it at all, if they choose to read it. We can go back and look at the thread.

I apologize, this is quite wrong. People did respond to it. By calling the author a pedophile and casting aspersions on him because he is not a feminist.

Here is the quote, author removed for the sake of his confidentiality, but it is easy to find who said this if one really cares:

This Shakespeare reference, methinks the lady doeth protest too much, is used for when someone says vehemently “I’m not a pedophile” or “I’m not an X” and gives away the fact that they actually are X by protesting too much about it.

Go prove me wrong then. No one, absolutely no one, addressed Mankowski’s proofs. Instead, he was called a pedophile and his judgement was called into question due to his not being a feminist.

Hi guys, time to go and have a cup of tea or some such thing and likewise take a moment to review our community guidelines. Thanks.

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