EBTs and lay people not being able to keep the precepts to the same level as mendicants

Hi @Polarbear, I used the term ‘armchair ascetic’ in the thread about Fundamentalism, which seemed an appropriate place, given the topic, and again used it here, where it also feels appropriate as people are posting about taking on monks rules without actually being a monk… but let me reassure you that it was not in reaction to your post in particular but more generally a response to the very big gap between theory and practice, and how to skillfully navigate it in an authentic way.

When people are furiously quoting EBT texts at each other online, the distinctions you raise above quickly become moot :joy: :joy::joy: but although I very much understand the differences in approach as you’ve articulated them here, a question is; do others? This is something I keep in mind when I post (especially in regards to asceticism) because people here are often looking for guidance in their practice and so we should perhaps feel a sense of responsibility for what and how we post, thinking about how it might be received. Maybe I feel this more, being a monk. I’m concerned about consequences for people’s practice and their overall spiritual well-being.

Looking at your post above, and recollecting the topics of your other posts, I can see why you may have taken my comments personally. It wasn’t intended that way.
:wink: Thanks for clearing the air, though, I hope that I have done the same here. If you want to discuss this further please DM me.

But back to the topic at hand!! :laughing:
Yes, @Viveka, indeed,

The real test of both the precepts (as in this thread) or ascetic practices (in other threads) is not so much adhering to the letter of the rule, or taking on a rule for its own sake, but understanding what what it restrains in us, and what is developed through the practice of the rule. Does our observance lead to an increase in wholesome qualities or do they decrease? Is it an empty, pointless tick-the-box practice, taken on for no good reason; or, is it actually meaningful to us?

Sīlabbata-parāmāsa , mindlessly clinging to rituals, or ceremoniously taking on rules, is one of the fettters, or samyojana that blocks our practice by distorting our understanding of the purpose and benefits of those precepts and practices. It’s like mistaking the path for the destination, or not seeing the woods for the trees! It is an unexamined approach to Dhamma.

One of my favourite examples of this is the Dog Duty Ascetic who has taken on a whole range of quite intense practices with no actual benefit whatsoever:

this naked dog ascetic Seniya does a hard thing: he eats food placed on the ground. For a long time he has undertaken that observance to behave like a dog.

Kukkuravatika Sutta MN 57:
https://suttacentral.net/mn57/en/sujato

Disclaimer: Not recommended!!! :yum:

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