EBTs & The Problem of "Inauthentic" Texts

EBTs & Problem of Inauthentic Texts

I think the existence of texts cast as “Inauthentic & fictional” in the Pāli Canon by the EBT Scholars creates a problem that I haven’t seen adequately handled by the EBT camp that I’ll be calling Preservationists, a position that is explained by Bhantes @Sujato & @Brahmali in their Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts.

That problem is, of course (If the suttas were meant as a historical accurate account of Buddha’s ministry) Why did the Sangha make up obviously fictional & inauthentic texts and include them in the Canon?

In their work, they argue that:

  1. That most of the EBTs are authentic.
    An authentic text is one whose provenance is what it says it is. In this case this means that texts that purport to be the words of the historical Buddha and his immediate disciples were in fact spoken by them.

Early Buddhist Texts: Texts spoken by the historical Buddha and his contemporary disciples. These are the bulk of the Suttas in the main four Pali Nikāyas and parallel Āgama literature in Chinese, Tibetan, Sanskrit, and other Indian dialects; the pātimokkhas, and some Vinaya material from the khandhakas; a small portion of the Khuddaka Nikāya, consisting of significant parts of the Sutta Nipāta, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Dhammapada, and Thera- and Therī Gāthā. The “Suttas” in a narrow sense are those passages that are directly attributed to the Buddha himself (and to a lesser extent his direct disciples).

  1. That the EBTs were edited and arranged over a few centuries following the Buddha’s demise. The texts as we have them now are not a verbatim record of the Buddha’s utterances, but the changes are in almost all cases details of editing and arrangement, not of doctrine or substance.

With this view, they’re already in tension with the Theravada Mainline view, which of course holds that entire Pāli Canon are Buddhavacana.

For the sake of this discussion, I’ll be reformulating their view for a theory of how Sutta-Tradition began:

For Preservationists, suttas are born as detailed historical records of the Shakyamuni Buddha’s insight & doctrine.

EBT Preservationists posit that the canon is corrupted, as they declare “That the inauthentic portions of these texts are generally identifiable.” ibid, therefore accusing the Sangha of composing and passing along fictional texts.

This is a delicate issue, and it’s hard to handle it with care and respect.

I do not know a way to explain their position and how they explain that Pāli Canon contains Inauthentic suttas, without casting Sangha as liars.

I’m positioning myself in the (Historical-)Fictionalist camp, that Buddhism likely began with indeed a historical Buddha, who did inspire a lot of followers, but in the early days it’s likely that the Sangha was less interested in preserving a verbatim doctrine or an extensive historical record, than they were inspiring with colourful similes to talk about the virtues and bliss of renunciation.

This is not to say the entire thing is a fiction, and that nothing can be traced to Shakyamuni at all. Perhaps some (a lot) of verses could be traced to him. Perhaps, the main doctrine really belongs to him.

I’d like to have a little more faith in the people who took effort to memorise and pass on these texts. The most generous (and honestly, the simplest) explanation I have is that Shakyamuni probably did live, and he was so inspirational that people couldn’t stop making stories about him.

But who Buddha was and what he did would’ve been second to the kind of bon-mots and pratice he taught. Indeed, there are many suttas where “The Buddha” could’ve been any other sage, and the text doesn’t make it obvious that it is Shakyamuni itself. So perhaps people simply just made up stories saying “So spoke the sage, or so I’ve heard”, with a wink and a smirk.

It’s easy to contemplate how such a movement, as it grew larger and more numerous, had to unify their doctrine at some point, and also fill in the blanks about this mysterious sage that so many were inspired by.

I think this is more generous explanation for the evolution of the Canon, without accusing elders of being liars. But this obviously fictional element might’ve been over time taken more and more literally, to the point that we think that it was always a literal history.

After all, if it was always mostly a fiction, then writing another fictional story about how Shakyamuni died, how Council got together, so on and so forth, would not really be a lie. It’s just another story in the fantastic stories.

Morever, this perspective doesn’t discredit the importance of the obviously fantastical and fictional elements in the Canon. Indeed, those fantastic and fictional elements then are seen not as bug, but a feature.

Therefore, we’re not in a hurry to read over the parts where peoples’ heads explode, where monks shake buildings with their toes, where monks fly up in the air and burst into flame. For an EBT Preservationist, these sections are necessarily problems, the unfortunate corruptions of folk who had to make up exaggrations (a rather condescending attitude, if I may!).

For a Fictionalist, those are the very treasures of the Canon, carrying the spirit of the Community that shaped these stories.


In their work above, Bhantes Suajto & Brahmali create a “Denialist” which they find unreasonable given the ‘evidence’ they present.

But then, if Buddhism indeed began as a historical & doctrinal factual preservation movement, then how come the Sangha wrote such Extensive amount of fictional works? If the implicit assumption in Councils was that they were to preserve “The word of the Buddha & Nothing But the Word of the Buddha”, how could they convince so many monks to include so many inauthentic texts in the Canon?

How could the Sangha, who should be upholding Right Speech, create such a monumental lie? Is this a charitable view of the tradition?

The simplest explanation I can think of, is then: That these stories weren’t originally meant to be taken literally, as historical records. That’s the only way I can reconcile a group of monks who swear by Right View, to expand on the Canon so generously and creatively.

My argument, then, is not a Denialist, because perhaps it’s unreasonable to expect Buddhism to meet the “Historical Preservation” goals that we think it should.

Such developments (that is, how the meta story evolved to include those elements of preservation) can be explained with Socio-Political pressures without casting Ancient Sangha as liars, coupled with actual preservation methods and practices.


Phew. That was a mouthful, and I hope I managed to stay in line respectfully, without offending any parties involved. :slight_smile:

I do sincerely believe that my approach (which I’m building on, with the works of Gregory Schopen, Steven Collins, Richard Gombrich, John Strong, Jonathan Walters, and so on) treats a careful line, that:

  1. Doesn’t discredit the importance of materials because they’re late.
  2. Doesn’t discredit the monks who transmit these texts as “liars”.
  3. Doesn’t discredit the fictional and fantastical elements of the Canon.
  4. Meets myth sincerely for what it is, cherishing it for what it functions as.

I welcome everyone to criticise my ideas as I present them, and even more importantly, if you find yourself in the Sujato / Brahmali camp (or are those Venerables themselves!), then I do invite you to explain why and how the Sangha managed to create and transmit inauthentic texts without causing a stirrup in the Sangha, how such a conspiracy might’ve occurred without a single note in the history. :slight_smile:

“Artists use lies to tell the truth.” Alan Moore

Closing off, I’d rather see the ancient Sangha as artists who told the truth using fiction, rather than as corrupt historians. :slight_smile:

After all, imagine I give you an apple jam I’ve made with 99 good apples, and a single rotten, worm infested apple. Would you eat that jam?

Respectfully, with love.

:lotus:

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I was wondering, since you have already mentioned a number of scholars, if and where you would position this hypothesis on the AnalayoShulman axis, which has already generated some (1) lively (2) debate.

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In history regarding the four principal Agamas/Nikayas (collections), these go back to Samyukta/Samyutta Buddhism (相應教, Saṃyukta-kathā, ldan pa’i gtam) (i.e. the synthesis of the three angas: Sutra, Geya, Vyakarana), and were in fact noticed and mentioned by at least one early Buddhist school, Sarvastivada:

“即彼一切事相應教間廁鳩集。是故說名雜阿笈摩 =
gzhi thams cad dang ldan pa’i gtam de yang dag par ldan pa las ’byung bas na de’i phyir yang dag par ldan pa zhes bya’o.

即 彼相應教。復以餘相處中而說。是故說名中阿笈摩 =
de dang ldan pa’i gtam nyid rnam pa gzhan du bar gyi mdo sde rnams kyis bstan pas na de’i phyir bar ma zhes bya’o.

即彼相應教。更以餘相廣長而說。是故說名長阿笈摩 =
de nyid rnam pa gzhan du rgyud ring po’i mdo sde rnams kyis bstan pas na de’i phyir ring po zhes bya’o.

即彼相應教。更以一二三等漸增分數道理而說。是故說名增一阿笈摩 =
gcig dang gnyis dang gsum la sogs pa nas gcig nas gcig tu sde tshan gyi tshul gyis ’byung bas
na gcig las ’phros pa zhes bya’o”

“Because the connected discourses/teachings (相應教, saṃyukta-kathā) are grouped together according to all the topics/subject matters (事, vastu) into connected units (saṃyuktas), it is called Saṃyukta-āgama.

“Because the connected discourses are expounded in another manner by means of medium-sized discourses, it is called the Madhyama-āgama.

Because the connected discourses are expounded in another manner by means of lengthy discourses, it is called the Dīrgha-āgama.

Because the connected discourses are arranged sequentially in sections going from one [topic/subject matter], to two, three and so forth, it is called the Ekottarika-āgama.”

Thus, Saṃyukta-kathā (相應教, ldan pa’i gtam) was the foundation of the gradual development of the four principal Agamas/Nikayas in Early Buddhism.

See the discussions:

(1) The sūtra-mātṛkā (sūtra matrix, 契經, 摩呾理迦 or 本母) - Discussion - Discuss & Discover

(2) The sūtra-mātṛkā (sūtra matrix, 契經, 摩呾理迦 or 本母) - Discussion - Discuss & Discover

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According to Ven. Yin Shun, Samyukta Buddhism 相應教 in its three characteristics (Sutra, Geya, Vyakarana) greatly influenced the historical development of Buddhism from Early Buddhism and beyond. See pp. 731-2 in The Formation of Early Buddhist Texts (1971 first edition):

《原始佛教聖典之集成》:「「相應教」以外的,傳誦於教界的聖典,著實不少。「中阿含」、「長阿含」(「增壹阿含」)的結集,只是將傳誦於佛教界的,共同審定,而類集成為大部。「中」與「長」的分類,主要為文段長短;對固有的「相應教」的「雜碎」,而稱為「中」與「長」。大部的集成,決不是個人的,照著自己的理解而編成,如 Franke 所說的那樣[27]。當時,只是將傳誦中的聖典,集成大部。在結集者看來,這是佛法的集成。隨義類而分為多少品,義類相近,自然會現出共同的傾向;但不能想像為存有什麼預期的編纂方針。(p. 731)

原始聖典三分的特性,如上面所說。適應出家眾(比丘為主的),重於禪慧修證的開示;適應剎帝利、婆羅門、居士,而為一般社會的化導;適應天、魔、梵——民間的神教信仰,對婆羅門、外道等,宣揚富於天神(鬼)色彩的佛法。這一特性,深深的影響未來。原始結集(雖有三分),重於出家弟子的修證,代表了佛陀時代的佛教。「中」、「長」(「增一」)的結集,代表佛滅一世紀,七百結集以前的佛教。雖然還是以出家眾為主的,但三方面的特性,更顯著的發展起來。」(p. 732)

(CBETA 2025.R2, Y35, no. 33, pp. 731a10-732a6)

[27] 如前田惠學《原始佛教聖典之成立史研究》所引(六二一——六二三)。

Not just with the Theravada, but with probably all Indian Buddhist schools in their developed phase.

You may be interested in a talk on the term buddhavacana linked to below, given by an Aussie (or perhaps a Kiwi – I can’t quite place the man’s accent) Tendai monk, Rev. Jikai Dehn. I found him unpalatably doctrinaire to listen to (more so than even the most hard-headed Burmese sayadaws that I’ve known), but nonetheless worth the effort as his research into the term is so fastidiously thorough.

A brief talk on the concept of “Buddhavacana” and its relationship to “Buddha-Dharma”. The talk provides an overview of various positions on these concepts over the centuries, and ends with a discussion of the Tiantai/Tendai tradition’s position.

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You assume here that EBT Preservationists don’t believe in supernormal powers?

I think this depends highly on which specific texts you’re referring to.

Take the Khuddakapatha for example. This was obviously compiled by the early saṅgha to make a “chanting book.” Because it was compiled by the early saṅgha and widely chanted / highly regarded by them, it was included in the Canon, despite being compiled by the disciples and not the Buddha himself.

The Abhidhamma sought to systematize the teachings of the Buddha and draw out its latent metaphysics. It came to be regarded as authoritative enough to be Canonized, but it’s worth noting that the Abhidhamma itself knows that it was compiled by disciples. It’s only in the Theravāda Commentaries that they feel the need (being so conservative) to explain how the Abhidhamma really is the Buddha’s words and that’s why it’s in the Canon. Their highly conservative attitude, and assumption that their elders were equally conservative, led them to a radical placing of the Abhidhamma in the Buddha’s mouth!

As I’ve talked about before, I think the early Prajñāpāramitā was something like satire, poking fun at the Abhidhammists and their desire for metaphysics in a doctrine pointing towards emptiness.

Etc.

At the end of the day it’s just kind of natural that as texts age, they become increasingly “canonical” to their textual community. This happened with the essays of Dōgen, for example, and the Platform “Sutra” before him, and it may even happen to e.g. Bhante Sujato’s various polemics! As the text recedes further and further into the past, its authorship and context get murkier until eventually it’s all just “Buddha-Vacana” to everyone but the most committed historical scholars.

In Thailand, for example, it’s quite common for monks to misremember or misattribute quotes or stories to the Buddha or to his immediate disciples that actually happened to famous Thai monks and vice versa… In this way, the early Saṅgha becomes more of a troupe of characters than historical figures: archetypes onto which we project anything that we consider “well spoken.”

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Well, I assume it’s a spectrum. :sweat_smile: Generally though, from a rough overview of Venerables Analayo, Sujato, Brahmali, they do entertain the idea that not all of fantastical elements may be factual. I’m thinking about Aggañña Sutta, for example, which they entertain as a satire of Brahmanical views.

Then, we have some embellishments, that can be read as mere exaggerations of things that might happen - peoples heads exploding when they can’t answer the Buddha, might just be a colourful explanation of being red im the face and cringing oneself. Monks flying into air and bursting into flame to reach patinirvana might again, just be a reverend way to explain their passing away.

If a person holds that these things can actually happen and that the suttas are a faithful recollection of such events… I don’t even know how to argue against that. :sweat_smile::upside_down_face:

My point is, if we accept these embellishments as such, I can’t see how a group of monks oath-bound to Right Speech wouldn’t have problem with even the barest hint of unfactual things being retold?

And if we think the monks actually thought these things happened verbatim… How reliable is their word, then?

I can grant some of the accounts being visions and experiences in meditation, where some of these might happen… But that’s not always the framing. In general, if a person doesn’t find anything problematic in the entire supernatural depictions when viewed through a “historical accurate” perspective… I think I have to draw a line. :slight_smile:

Right - but is this a feature or a bug? That’s the question. :slight_smile:

I think Vinaya stories are very interesting, that they differ so radically from school to school.

I do love this idea. :smiley:

Right, which is why I think it’s more embrasive and and considerate to treat Buddhism as a (living) storytelling tradition, where the Core Dharma is kept in tact, but the story changes according to the audiences and teachers needs. :slight_smile:

I believe an approach like this bridges the gap between Mahāyāna and Theravada traditions, celebrates their differences, asking “What function fiction serves?”

Which ties into what @prabhath asked, on the Analayo/Shulman scale: I actually forgot to include Shulman in my inspirations, whose “Play of formulas” theory is greatly interesting, though I don’t know what to think about it’s details.

What I appreciate the most about him, is that he advocates moving away from comparative studies which seeks to find the perfect, ur text account (my paraphrasing), and instead of seeing the differences between the suttas of different schools as the natural decay, he cherishes their differences as artistic expressions.

Personally, I find it depressing to treat %99 of Buddhist literature as “Inauthentic”, trying to seek the verbatim account of an ever elusive Buddha, when there’s an ocean of wisdom to be found (perhaps, however falliable they might be) with great monks and people who for 2500 years contributed greatly to the elucidation of Dharma.

I’ll actually get to their works in depth later on, which I think is greatly valuable.

:sweat_smile: Thanks a lot for that, sir!

Right. For me, mostly a bug.

I think it was rather dangerous, for example, for the Theravādan Commentaries to adopt, essentially, a terma doctrine into Theravada by justifying the Abhidhamma as having been preserved by Devas. Thankfully, few people have used this loophole to justify adding their own “newly revealed” texts into the Pāli Canon!

But why did they feel the need to have the Abhidhamma spoken by the Buddha? Shouldn’t the fact that it was written by the Buddha’s early disciples, their elders, be reason enough to hear what it has to say? Or did they, even in those days, have something of a “Protestant” attitude of disregarding things that weren’t said by the Buddha himself?

I think it’s worth noting here that even the EBTs contain plenty of suttas in which the Buddha doesn’t figure. Even in the EBTs, discourses by the Buddha’s disciples were considered worth preserving alongside what the Buddha taught.

Of course, respect for the tradition doesn’t mean we need to credulously believe that every Buddhist text throughout history was written by an arahant and passed down with 100% fidelity for 2500 years.

In short, I think we should be mature. We should listen to our elders but also be willing to interrogate them. As long as that enquiry is done in good faith without ulterior motive, with genuine interest and respect for the tradition, and with a willingness to change our mind (as you seem to be advocating for here), then I don’t see historical critical study as a danger to the tradition but as a healthy expression of it, adding our own understanding to the lineage as we pass it on.

And so, to that extent, it is a feature and not a bug. :blush:

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I agree. Buddhist literature is an enormous body of very different texts, that can be used to substantiate a bewildering variety of positions.

Perhaps one should formulate what is essential in this body for them, and what is not.

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Hi Dogen,

Thanks for bringing this up! It has been discussed before, but perhaps this is a good time to review some of the issues involved.

First of all, we are not accusing anyone of being “liars”, or even “composing and passing along fictional texts”. The reality is much more complex and, I would say, interesting. (I use “we” because the Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts was a collaborative work, not because I wish to speak for Bhante Sujato.)

The idea of authenticity is far from absolute. Authenticity, rather, exists on a sliding scale. At one end we have suttas that are largely inauthentic, whereas on the other end the suttas are close to authentic. No sutta, at least in the four Nikāyas, is either entirely inauthentic or entirely authentic. Let’s reflect on what this might mean in practice. I will first consider the Mahāyāna Sūtras before I go on to discuss the Nikāya/Āgama literature.

An example of largely inauthentic suttas would be certain Mahāyāna suttas. I am not at all well versed in the Mahāyāna Canon, but I know enough of the style and content of these texts to be able to say that they come from a different era than the texts of the four Nikāyas. In spite of this they claim to be spoken by the Buddha. So, were the authors of these texts liars? Or is there a more charitable way of interpreting this?

The first thing to be aware of is that despite the overall lateness of these suttas, they often contain elements that come from the earlier tradition. An example of this, as detailed by Bhante Sujato in his book A History of Mindfulness, is the inclusion of parts of the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta in one version of the Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra. This intertextuality shows us that both authenticity and inauthenticity are matters of degree.

The second thing to consider is how these suttas originated. It has been suggested that at least some Mahāyāna Sūtras were composed as a result of meditation experiences. In other words, you have an experience and then write down what you saw. If you saw the Buddha and he spoke to you, then the resulting text will reflect this, that is, that the Buddha spoke. This is not so much a case of lying as a case of not properly conveying the origin of the sutta, or perhaps a case of being too credulous.

A third issue is that the suttas do contain some texts that seem to allow for a rather loose interpretation of what constitutes the word of the Buddha. For instance, the Uttara Sutta at AN 8.8 says that

… whatever is well spoken is spoken by the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha.

… yaṃ kiñci subhāsitaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ tassa bhagavato vacanaṃ arahato sammāsambuddhassa.

This might be read as giving an allowance to claim that the Buddha was the originator of any text that reflects his message, even if it did this only in an indirect way. Presumably the authors of the Mahāyāna Sūtras thought they were preserving the word of the Buddha, even as they ventured far afield, with Bodhisattva doctrines and whatnot.

My point here is that even with the Mahāyāna Sūtras, which most historians would agree are not the word of the Buddha, it is probably not right to say they were composed in bad faith. Reality is complicated, and it is impossible, in retrospect, to fully understand the forces that were felt by the authors of these texts. What we can do, however, is to use our general understanding of the complexities of history and the quirks of human nature to read these texts charitably and to give the authors the benefit of the doubt.

If this is true of the Mahāyāna Sūtras, we should be able to make an even stronger case that the suttas of Nikāyas/Āgamas were not composed by liars or writers of fiction. Let’s look at some of the factors that have shaped these suttas into their present form.

Some suttas were added to the four Nikāyas after the Buddha passed away. We know this because the suttas themselves say so. Examples include MN 84 and MN 94. At other times the Buddha is not mentioned at all, and the overall sense is that the Buddha has passed away, such as in MN 108. Such additions may have continued until, perhaps, the second Council. One of the reasons it could not be much later than this is that King Ashoka, despite his tremendous significance for Buddhism, is not mentioned anywhere in these texts.

Now if the Nikāyas were added to after the Buddha passed away, then what criteria were used to decide on such additions? Well, the obvious ones are the four great standards found in the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta (DN 16). If a monk, or anyone else, came along claiming to remember a discourse by the Buddha, it would only be included in the Nikāyas if the content was in harmony with what had already been collected. The root text was the result of the recitation at the first Council by the Buddha’s direct disciples, first and foremost Ven. Ānanda.

The fact that texts were added, sometimes decades after the Buddha had passed away, makes it likely that flaws in memory and corruptions had already affected them, especially if they had only been preserved by a single or a few individuals, as envisaged in the four great standards. In this way inauthentic elements are likely to have made their way into these texts.

A second source of inauthenticity is found in the narrative parts of the suttas. Much of this material was added at the first Council or later. This is how this is described in Khandhaka section of the Vinaya Piṭaka:

“Please, venerables, I ask the Sangha to listen. If the Sangha is ready, I will reply when asked by Venerable Mahākassapa about the Teaching.”

Mahākassapa then asked Ānanda, “Where was ‘The Supreme Net’ spoken?”

“At the royal rest-house at Ambalaṭṭhikā, between Rājagaha and Nāḷanda.”

“Who is it about?”

“The wanderer Suppiya and the young brahmin Brahmadatta.”

Mahākassapa also asked Ānanda about the origin story of ‘The Supreme Net’ and about the person. (Kd 21)

Here it seems as if the Buddha’s spoken words are taken for granted. What is asked about is the context, the narrative aspects, which until this time presumably had not been memorised as part of the suttas. We can therefore suppose that the narrative material of the suttas was added at the earliest at the first Council, but some of it no doubt much later.

How accurate were these details remembered? Because they were not part of the oral transmission system from the start, there is good reason to think that many errors were made. This is indeed what we seem to find. I haven’t done any systematic survey of this, but judging by Ven. Anālayo’s Comparative Study of the Majjhima Nikāya, the openings and endings of the suttas, which is where the narrative material is generally found, is often quite different in the different versions of the text, specifically the place where the events happened is often different, as is the effect on the audience in terms of whether they become followers of the Buddha, etc. We also see this tendency to unreliability in transmission in the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta, which is mostly narrative and which must have been finalised after the Buddha passed away. The different versions of this sutta have much in common, but also a fair amount that differs, more so than we usually see in the Nikāyas. (Again, this is just my judgment, and not the result of a proper study.)

A third source of inauthentic material is the incursion of commentarial material into the suttas. This has been documented by Ven. Analayo in a number of his essays. For instance, in his work on the Brahmajāla Sutta, DN 1, he has shown that the long sections on sīla, known as majjima-sīla and mahā-sīla, were originally commentarial in nature, but at some point in history became part of the sutta. If this has happened with DN 1, it seems likely that it has also happened in other suttas.

It is not hard to see why this would have happened. In the early days commentaries were committed to memory, just like the suttas. For the commentaries to be meaningful, they would have been recited alongside the suttas. At times, it would have been difficult to keep the two apart, for there is no absolutely reliable way of differentiating between the two. In this way, we can see how there would at times have been a blurring of the boundary between the two kinds of literature, root text and commentary.

Yet another source of errors, the fourth, are accidents in oral transmission. Although the system of oral transmission seems to have preserved the suttas with surprising fidelity, mistakes were made. A glaring example of this is found in MN 112, where the title speaks of a sixfold purity, whereas the content only has five. A parallel preserved in Chinese, however, has six elements, the sixth of which is also mentioned in the Pali commentary. If such obvious errors where sometimes made, we can expect that lesser errors were made all the more often.

A fifth source of errors is the addition of new material to the suttas. The most obvious example of this may be the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, which has been studied in great detail by Bhante Sujato. The sutta comes in six or seven different versions, all of which contain a different number of elements. Because the sutta has a modular structure, it is very easy to add extra elements, which seems to be exactly what has happened. Why was this done? One reason could be that, although the various suttas on satipaṭṭhāna may have originated in the Saṁyutta Nikāya, there may have been a perceived need to include satipaṭṭhāna material in each Nikāya. Because the suttas in the Majjhima and Dīgha Nikāyas are generally longer than the Saṁyutta suttas, new material was added to make them fit the new context. Importantly, however, this new material was not invented from scratch, but was rather material that already existed in the Nikāyas and had some connection to sati or satipaṭṭhāna. It was essentially just a reshuffling of material. This may have seemed innocuous enough at the time, but all such reshufflings have consequences. One of these consequences has been to shift the emphasis of satipaṭṭhāna from samatha to vipassanā. The general outlook in the suttas is that satipaṭṭhāna is concerned with achieving samādhi, but in the Satipaṭṭhāna Suttas, the has shifted towards vipassanā, partly explaining the modern vipassanā movement.

To sum up, the above explains why suttas are authentic to different degrees, that is, why there is a spectrum of authenticity/inauthenticity. No sutta is 100% authentic, and no sutta, at least in the four Nikāyas, is 100% inauthentic. It also explains why inauthenticity does not imply that monastics were lying or being deceptive. Inauthenticity is explained by the imperfect nature of oral transmission and the accidents of history. The world is messy, and we should expect messy results in all areas, including in the transmission of sacred scriptures.

Why would the Sangha not have been interested in preserving the doctrine verbatim? We have good evidence that the Sangha was very conservative in the way it handled the teachings coming from the Buddha. The fair amount of comparative research that has now been done, especially Ven. Analayo’s Comparative Study of the Majjhima Nikāya, shows that at an early stage, perhaps 200 years after the Buddha, the schools took great care in preserving these texts. If you take a discourse from the Majjhima and you compare it with its Madhyama Āgama equivalent, which is now available in English translation, you will see very quickly what I mean. Most discourses in the Majjhima have easily identifiable parallels in the Sarvāstivādin Madhyama Āgama. This would not be the case if these discourses had not been carefully preserved. No other class of Buddhist literature, apart from the Pātimokkha and in part the rest of the Vinaya Piṭaka, has anywhere near the same parallelism. We can conclude from this that the various schools, or at least the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda, were conservative in the way they handled the early Buddhist texts.

Where did this conservatism come from? To me the obvious answer is that it was inherited from the earliest days of Buddhism. In fact, this is what we should expect. The suttas themselves, e.g. DN 29, give detailed instructions on how to preserve both the wording and the meaning of the discourses. Why wouldn’t this go back to the Buddha? He claimed to have profound answers to the great existential question, promising that his teachings would lead to happiness for anyone who followed them. It seems obvious to me that one would do one’s very best to preserve such teachings for future generations.

And why wouldn’t the Buddha himself have given similes? The similes of the suttas are usually closely related to the doctrinal sections, often illustrating the doctrines in very direct ways. Is there any reason to think the Buddha would not have given such similes?

But there aren’t that many stories about the Buddha in the four Nikāyas. It is not as if that’s the bulk of the material. The bulk, rather, is doctrine. Even within the autobiographical suttas - which are less likely to be made up than narratives - such as MN 4, MN 26, MN 36, MN 81, MN 128, etc., most of the content is in fact doctrinal. We are left with the suttas of the Dīgha Nikāya, in which many suttas, but far from all, do contain a fair number of stories about the Buddha. Still, overall we are probably talking about less than 5% of the content of the four Nikāyas.

Some of these things may be authentic, but it is also possible that some of them are not. This needs to be decided through appropriate research.

In what sense are they treasures? Because they are an interesting window on ancient literature? Because they are fun stories? Or because they lead you onward on the spiritual path? To me it is only the latter of these that is a true treasure.

Anyway, thanks presenting your views. I wish you all the very best! :slightly_smiling_face:

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I agree that there is much of interest in Buddhist literature that is not the word of the Buddha. And I agree we should celebrate that, enjoy it, and use it in our practice. Still, if the Buddha discovered a fundamental truth of nature, then it is obvious that this truth may be represented correctly or incorrectly. So we need a way of differentiating between true and false Dhamma, for instance, whether there is rebirth. Going by some modern authors, you might think this was an optional part of the Dhamma. But no, it turns out to be a fundamental part of the Dhamma, especially in the earliest Buddhist texts. This example may be particularly obvious, but similar questions are asked all the time about core aspects of these teachings, not the least on this very platform! The best place to find the answers is in the EBTs.

So “Protestant Buddhism” pre-dates Protestantism! :smiley: Nice insight!

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:smiley: :folded_hands: Hello Bhante @brahmali! Thank you so much for joining it!

I’d like to start off again what a wonderful treasure it is to have giants like you and Bhante Sujato, who not only contribute to the field, but engage with us and our pesky questions online.

Your notes on textual errors is well noted and recieved. But I’d like to emphasise this part a little viz-a the fantastic:

Indeed. I hope it didn’t sound like I was putting those words in your mouth!

That’s just what seems to me the natural conclusion is, however, and I very much welcome the chance to understand why you don’t think that’s the case.

Just to crystalize, I think these arguments you raise:

Could be applicable to some of the texts, and indeed Mahāyāna texts could be read in this way.

But how does it explain 32 marks, Abhidhamma’s preservation in Deva realm, Jatakas, and the diversity of Vinaya stories? These seem like obvious fictional elements, and for example it’s been noted by Bhante Sujato that many of Jatakas predate even Buddhism. How could the elders have convinced the sangha to preserve these in the Canon?

I think we’re very much focused on the content, the doctrine, and the math, whilst disregarding the psychosomatic effects of sutta recitations and reception. :slight_smile: And we’re supposed to be a tradition that explores alternative states-of-mind!

Case in point, reading suttas silently in front of a computer, is a substantially different experience than it is to hear it chanted out loud. The effect the same words has on the person depends quite a bit on the medium. :slight_smile:

Likewise, I think fantastical elements serve a function beyond being, how do I say, mere fancies or ‘inessential’ additions (as per @Sphairos’s terminology). Reading Abhidhamma lists and the same list in a Sutta is a completely different experience, wouldn’t you agree? :slight_smile:

If I were to discard these “fanciful” additions without doing due diligence on why such a meticulous group of monastics, oath-bound to Right speech, has gone through pain-streaking efforts to memorise them verbatim, then I’m not really doing them a favour, and I’m not paying attention to their insight.

For example, in the middle of a serious Dhamma talk, it is quite a comedic relief to hear an opponent’s head explode! :smiley:

The effects of hearing an arahat’s passing away, in plain terms, has a different effect on me, than hearing about him “Rising into the air, closing his eyes, bursting into a wonderful ball of flame”.

I think these things do lead one onward on the spiritual path - or so must the elders have thought when adding these things to their sacred Canon. Remove them from the canon, and what we’re left with is something like Visuddhimagga, and who knows just how many people have read that thing! :smiley:

Perhaps, their function is to help us get out of the “Trying to make sense of” / “Trying to grasp” mentality - the logical part without the heart - and to point towards something that goes beyond “Learning the Dharma” but “Living the Dharma”, and eventually, “Letting go of the Dhamma”. :slight_smile:

SN 12.68 is a very interesting thing in the canon for me, where Nārada says, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, he knows and sees Dependent Origination, along with:

I have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. Yet I am not a perfected one.

This implies, that the right knowledge is not sufficient for liberation. It seems, doctrine or insight is only half the picture - the lived-in practice based on the insight is what carries one to the other shore.

And I have my suspicions that the fictional elements of the Canon serve such a function, and to hear and imagine them is part of the practice. :slight_smile:


Thank you again for your time and kind words, Bhante. All the best. :slight_smile:

:lotus:

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Yes, for some. For people like me, they are, frankly, off-putting. But for some people, they “work”, and it is precisely because of that, most likely, that they were incorporated into and transmitted in the body of Teachings…

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Sounds like he does, just can’t figure out how :wink:.

Yep, even in the commentaries where potential head exploding gets a bit more fleshed out, we don’t have any actual head popping.

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There is more than enough evidence outside the suttas to definitively prove evolution is a real process; there is not any evidence outside the suttas that the assertions of DN27 are true.

To assume a marginal claim of the suttas takes precedence over abundant evidence would be to go against the very teachings of the suttas on who and what to trust (AN3.65) as well as their warnings about the eventual decline of the Dhamma to irrelevant teachings (SN20.7), and to make the very unreasonable assumption that all things attributed to someone who is known to have made correct statements, or their followers, must be true regardless of their content.

Were that the case, I should be a Brahmin. The Brahmins, according to the suttas, have plenty of good teachings which would mean the unverifiable stuff like the assertion that there is a self should be accepted on the basis of faith, and it seems like Brahmanism is easier to follow than Buddhism.

What led us to this birth is clearly explained in suttas like SN12.1 - ignorance of the four noble truths and the noble eightfold path, neither of which concerns trivial details like one’s beliefs on the creation of the world or whether or not you believe every single Pāḷi sutta is actually su-utta or buddhavacana. It seems to me that not using reason when it comes to irrelevant teachings would be against the spirit of the suttas even more than rejecting some of them.

This is another problem, to take ones own believes for knowledge.


Your point on heads not exploding in the suttas is a very good point, though. The same unfortunately applies to yakkhas threatening to throw people to the far shore of the Ganges, which would have been fun.

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Though there is a story about the youthful Bodhisatta doing something like this in a trial of strength contest with Devadatta. It comes in three versions: in one version he throws the elephant over the city wall; in the second he throws it over to the far shore of the Ganges; in the third he throws the elephant so high into the air that it takes three days for it to come down again.

I can’t remember the textual sources of these stories, though I do recall that one of the Chinese pilgrims reports being shown the huge hole that was created by the third elephant when it finally landed.

Edit: I should hasten to add that it was actually an elephant corpse that was thrown. No living elephant was harmed in the production of this Avadāna.

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I do, but that’s probably another thread, while this one would be best served with people who’re at least on the same page about certain assumptions. :sweat_smile:

I am deliberately trying to tackle some of the thornier subjects, that I’ve seen erupt in fierce battles, carefully and with principles according to the suttas.

The Buddhist Literature, even confined to just 4 Main Nikayas, is so vast and varied, that we can come at it all from different places and emphasise different things. For example, I would always remain a Kalamavadin, questioning every sutta, while someone might profess that everything in the canon did happen verbatim. :slight_smile:

To me, Dharma is a special teaching, in that Buddha tells us to “Leave behind the Dharma, let alone Non-Dharma”. Which, I think is in tension with what Bhante @Brahmali said thus:

There are suttas that point out to this fundamental truth, and also, there are suttas that point out to “functional, utilitarian” aspect of Dharma, not as a fundamental truth, but as a raft. Seeing how a sage has no view, has nothing to say “It’s true” or “It’s false”, I think the practice runs deeper than figuring out a right formula and that formula being our salvation, like the Narada example above.

But one thing we can all agree is that there’s a lively (and respectful) culture of debate in the suttas, and the very act of tackling these matters with people like us, who’re for one reason or another as obsessed with suttas, in itself can be a good practice.

Even if we don’t agree with everything all the time, these debates, when done in good faith and an open heart, can teach us a thing or two, cultivating good friendship, which is arguably the whole of the path. :slight_smile:

:lotus:

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I think this issue is a difficult one because we’re dealing with a religion. Religions make claims about truth that make it disappointing when it turns out they are not always being completely factual. At least, to modern people who are accustomed to modern standards of factuality. In ancient times, it wasn’t possible to be completely factual after a period of time. It wasn’t a choice to make up inaccurate stories. They did the best that they could with an oral tradition. People usually think the stories they’ve heard are true when they aren’t completely correct in reality.

There’s also the reality that human social bonding through storytelling doesn’t yield absolute facts because it serves a social and emotional purpose. I think it’s a universal phenomenon that we’d see with any social group or movement. Humans need to have a sense of shared identity to bond with each other and cooperate. We are too quick to argue or ignore with each other if that doesn’t happen.

It might be a little easier to understand if we take a different example than early Buddhism.

Here in the United States, we have a famous documentarian named Ken Burns. He is someone who engages in history as national myth, which is to say that he understands the purpose of storytelling as a way to bring people together and forge a shared identity. He’s had a long career making popular documentaries about the history of the United States as a nation. He’s most famous for his series about the Civil War, but he has covered many different episodes in the country’s history in an attempt to create a consciousness about our history in a time when people tend to ignore history.

His latest project was a documentary series about the American Revolution as the origin story of the United States. Before it was released, he hyped it as a story to bring Americans together and heal the wounds of our political divides. In case anyone missed it, the United States isn’t doing very well these days. And I’m sure it pains someone like Ken Burns to sit and watch it take place when his entire career was an effort to see the opposite happen. He’s reaching the end of his life, and here we are.

His new series was broadcast recently on PBS, which turned out to be a very detailed narrative of all the battles of the Revolutionary War, rather than the political revolution that caused the war. And that’s because the idea was not to tell the story of Europeans rebelling against abusive noble families and asserting that they had rights. The story Burns wanted to tell was the origin story of the United States. His focus then was on the drama and sacrifice of the war with England and then the writing of the legal documents that would be the basis for the United States. But, mostly, his new documentary is a military history of the war similar to his Civil War series.

There’s a good commentary about this by historian Tad Stoermer:

This whole episode is instructive to me about how we should think about the storytelling that Buddhists engaged in. It’s not that origin stories are complete fiction. Certainly there’s plenty of supernatural episodes that are part and parcel of ancient storytelling. Modern people typically have a difficult time comprehend ancient literature because they don’t understand the purpose of the supernatural and magical in their storytelling. We see things in black and white: fiction or non-fiction. Ancient people didn’t separate the two types of story in that way.

But there’s no reason to reject the entire story of events about the founding of Buddhism. We just have to understand what the purpose of the storytelling had for Buddhists. They focused on particular events that served the purpose of forming a shared identity. The compilation of the scriptures being one of the main events in the storytelling, along with the drama of the Buddha defeating Mara at the bodhi tree and passing into nirvana between a pair of sal trees. Those main events are surrounding by all sorts of other little events involving his disciples and travels as a teacher. Eventually those stories had “prequel” stories of his time as a bodhisattva added to them. As a whole, all of these stories served to inform Buddhists about a shared history and who they were as Buddhists.

The problem is that with a subject like the American Revolution, we have plenty of historical documentation of who was involved, the events that took place, and what they thought about it afterward. With early Buddhism, we only have the later storytelling, which is likely skewed and incomplete. There’s a limit to what we can know on a factual level, but the stories have a purpose that isn’t about facts, per se.

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Thank You Charles for the Tad Stoermer link, it was excellent!

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