Eliminate ignorance first and then self view

Hi guys ,
Here is the supposed actual sequence for abandoning of the fetters .
Eliminate ignorant first and follow by self view which includes conceit . Also ,
doubt and blind faith following rites and rituals . Thus, attaining SE .

Below is popular view on the elimination sequence of the fetters .

Doubt, self view, cling to rite/ritual is eliminated on the first stage, the path of stream-entry (sotapatti-magga).

Sensual desire, ill will and remorse are eliminated on the third stage, the path of non-returner (anagami-magga)

conceit, restlessness, ignorant are eradicated on the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga).

If according to
SN 22.47 and SA 45, SA 63 as below :

SN 22.47

“The five faculties remain right there, bhikkhus, but in regard to them the instructed noble disciple abandons ignorance and arouses true knowledge. With the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, ‘I am’ does not occur to him; ‘I am this’ does not occur to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these do not occur to him.”

SA 45

「如是,比丘!有意界、法界、無明界,愚癡無聞凡夫無明觸故,起有覺、無覺、有無覺、我勝覺、我等覺、我卑覺、我知我見覺。如是知、如是見覺,皆由六觸入故。多聞聖弟子於此六觸入處,捨離無明而生明,不生有覺、無覺、有無覺、勝覺、等覺、卑覺、我知我見覺。如是知、如是見已,先所起無明觸滅,後明觸覺起。」
“Therefore the well-learned noble disciple, having given up ignorance regarding these six sense organs and wisdom arises and: the experience of existence, the experience of non existence, the experience of existence and non existence, the experience that I am superior, the experience that I am equal, the experience that I am inferior, the experience that I know, the experience that I see, the experience that I know like this and the experience that I see like this, do not arise. The ignorant contact which had arisen before is destroyed and thereafter wise contact and experience arise.”

SA 63

Monks, there is the mind element, the mind-object element and the element of ignorance. Being contacted by ignorant contact, a foolish unlearned worldling proclaims existence, proclaims non-existence, proclaims existence-and-non-existence, proclaims neither-existence-nor-non-existence, proclaims himself to be superior, proclaims himself to be inferior, proclaims himself to be equal, saying: ‘I know it, I see it.’

Therefore we can see :

The bhikkhu abandoned the ignorant first , thereafter ,
The bhikkhu abandoned the conceit (which is also self view)
when attained to the SE.

Whereas in the 10 fetters , conceit and ignorant were abandon at the path of Arahatship !

As some scholar regards five upper fetters were added later .

Thank you .

So the ‘learner’ (sekha) is someone who has attained Stream entry. The suttas describe how he goes to attain arahanthood.

I-making (ahankara) pride?
Mine-making (mamankara) sense of ownership?
…are removed later closer to becoming an arahanth together with mana (conceit). What alters at stream entry is the view that there is a Self. The thinking patterns and thoughts however are removed only later in the path.

With metta

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@Mat

Thanks for clarifying !

But , does the ignorant and self view being remove at the same time and therefore attain stream entry ?

It seems given up ignorant and removing self view were at the same time, and so become noble disciple ?

According to SA 45 SA 63 it thus seems so .

Thanks .

I-am in the sutta quote above is not Self-view.

Self-view is Sakkaya ditti, while I-am (which I think is a bad translation, incidentally) is ahamkara.

sakkaya ditti is lost at Stream entry while ahamkara (along with ignorance and mana) is lost at Arahanth level.

Learned Noble disciple is a term applied to those on the path to the fruit of stream entry to arahanths. (Trainee or sekha is a term applied to stream entrants or higher, but arahanths are asekha or non-trainee, as they have finished their training). Contextually the suttas quoted above about learned Noble disciples are those training to be arahanths and not stream entrants. :anjal:

With metta

@Mat
Really appreciate your clarification .
Thanks .
:anjal:

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You are welcome. This type of explanation is just factual, and doesn’t lead to any realisation!

With metta

@Mat

Below is ahamkara from dictionary .

Ahamkara

Ahamkara is “I-am-ness,”: Ahamkara is the sense of “I-am-ness,” the individual Ego, which feels itself to be a distinct, separate entity. It provides identity to our functioning, but Ahamkara also creates our feelings of separation, pain, and alienation as well.

Ahamkara = ego, or “I-maker”, aham = I, kara = maker, it is the ability of the mind (antahkarana) to take on identities, to make things “me” or “mine”.

Ahamkara = one of the four functions of mind: manas, chitta, ahamkara, and buddhi

Ahamkara can label or color the incoming sensory impressions with “I like” or “I don’t like” and “me” and “mine”, therefore it is ahamkara that builds the identity of an apparent individual. All coloring created by ahamkara together makes up the ‘you’.

@Mat ,
So, how would you say sakkaya-ditthi and ahamkara differs ? In what suttas that one can find the sakkaya-ditthi was applied ?

P/s : FYI, I don’t read Pali , so naturally I didn’t aware of what exactly the difference or even if there is a difference between sakkaya-ditthi and I am (ahamkara) .