What not knowable through your ordinary sense fields doesnt disprove that those mentioned realms does not exist .
I agree, I would say science is about conceiving a proposal or hypothesis that fits experiential reality better than the one it is replacing and then testing it.
At a journal club at our hospital this morning we were debating the ethical issues of the Lancet Commission on medicine and Nazism and the presenter quoted Yuval Noah Harari
“Human rights, just like God and heaven, are just a story that we’ve invented. They are not an objective reality…”
The point I made is that this is the fundamental fallacy of the western scientific model (that I live and work in, insofar as Medicine does anyway!): it gets the physical dimension but not the mental one. The use of the word “objective” is really talking about “objects” as he goes on to talk about cutting up the brain and not finding “rights” anywhere, therefore, they must be made up. This misses the fact that things like greed, hatred and delusion exist. They are not imaginary. They are very, very real. They are “mental objects” perhaps. I agree they are not physical objects. That doesnt mean they are not real.
So, I consider Buddhism to be a science. We have a proposed explanation for the non-physical domain and how it works. This CAN BE investigated and tested and theories can be investigated with a particular medical instrument that can investigate the non-physical domain (ie meditation). You can absolutely see for yourself whether the thesis presented by the Buddha works or does not. Eventually, you may or may not see for yourself about rebirth and karma…I dont know the answer to that as I am not there alas 
However, I can say that everything is proceeding exactly as the Buddha outlined to where I am. The advice about how to manage conflict is working for me. The specific meditation techniques he advises in certain situations works for me.
At no stage has he ordered anyone to do anything (like “religions” do), nor asked anyone to believe a single thing (like “religions” do). He just proposed a theory, gave you the techniques to test it, and left us to our own devices, just like one of my Professors at Uni (or like I do now that I am a Professor myself with my students!).
That is science in my view…but the experiments and investigations of a non-physical domain theory can only be properly tested in the non-physical domain with non-physical domain technology. My view is that western science just doesnt get this…
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Not sure what point you are making here. Are you suggesting that Buddha proposed ESP?
…furthermore, pending proof either way, the best approach, using a scientific methodology, would be to adopt the theory that best fits the experiential world around us until a better one or an absolute proof comes along. I agree that rebirth and karma have not been proven. However, they explain everything you see around you (including child prodigies, the differences between identical twins, and yes the rebirth memories that aren’t about someone being Cleopatra or Alexander the Great!)
Indeed, karma is absolutely what Newton’s laws about inanimate objects would be if they were translated to animate “objects”. A simple elegant solution that the entire universe, animate and inanimate, operates with the exact same principles of cause and effect, each working within its own domain.
Rebirth, conceded, much more complicated as you need to debate what “life” is right now in order to go there…but karma at least is pretty simple!
The point is, the evidences are there. It’s birthmarks, not the same as stigma, which could be self inflicted. Birthmarks are there from birth.
Also, here’s two cases from where reincarnation and biology intersect.
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Dellâl Beyaz was born in Samandag, Turkey, in July 1970. At her birth she was found to have a substantial birthmark at the top of her head, and it oozed for some days after her birth. As have some other subjects of these cases, Dellal gave the first indications of having memories of a previous life when her mother overheard her talking to herself. She seemed to be calling to someone for help. Gradually she communicated details about the life of a woman who, hanging out clothes to dry on the roof of a house, stepped back, and fell through a hole in the roof. She said that she was from Kavash. This is a district of the village of which adjoins Antakya, the capital city of the province of Hatay; it is about 30 kilometers from Samandag. Dellal’s statements would have gone unverified longer than they did if a man from who had relatives in Samandag had not happened to hear about them when he came to Samandag on a visit. DellaTs statements seemed to fit closely the life and death of a woman called Zehide Kose, who had lived and died at Zehide had been doing just what Dellal had said. She had been on the roof of a new house hanging out clothes to dry. A stairway opened on the roof without any guarding rail around the opening. Without realizing that the opening was there, Zehide had stepped back and, losing her balance, had fallen into the hole of the stairway. She hit the concrete below, head first. Taken to a hospital, she died there the following day of injuries to her skull and brain. The hospital record, which I examined, confirmed the cause of Zehide’s death. It made no mention of any damage to the scalp that would have corresponded to the birthmark at the top of DellaTs head; but this could easily have been overlooked beneath Zehide’s hair. I first examined DellaTs birthmark when she was a little over 5 years old. It was a round, hairless area almost at the center of the top of her head. It was a little less than 1 centimeter in diameter. It resembled the scar of a healed wound (*). Dellal was one of the few Turkish subjects to describe an event that occurred after death in the previous life. She gave a correct description of the location of Zehide’s grave.
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Wilfred Meares, a Haida, was born in Queen Charlotte City, British Columbia, Canada, on November 22, 1961. Before she conceived him, Wilfred’s mother, Ruby Meares, had had two dreams about a deceased relative, Victor Smart, who, she said, “kept coming to me.” Even before that, this same relative, while he was still living, had said that, if he were to reincarnate, he would like to return as Ruby Meares’s child. Victor Smart was an amiable person, but he was an alcoholic. He also had the dangerous habit of riding in the passenger seat of a car with his back to the door. One day he was being driven with some friends in a car and was sitting in this fashion when the car crashed. The door opened, Victor shot out, and his head hit the pavement. The force was great enough so that he bit his tongue and broke his neck, dying instantly. I obtained a copy of the report of his death at the hospital to which his body was taken; it contained the details 1 have just given. Wilfred’s birthmark was a hairless area at the back of his head that, when he was 12 years old, measured about 2 centimeters long and 5 millimeters wide (*). When Wilfred could speak, he made a few statements about the life of Victor Smart. He showed friendships and animosities toward members of the family that accorded with those of Victor Smart. Wilfred had a precocious interest in alcohol and would hang around adults who were drinking, expecting them to serve him some alcohol. It was observed, however, that he was always polite about this matter and never took a drink without being offered and given one. Ruby Meares told me that Victor Smart also had this admirable trait.
The point is, even absence of any evidence, should not be problematic, at least for one who developes five faculties, and one of them is faith.
Also we clearly deal with very subtle matter, world creation, so to speak. To live in incomprehensible universe and be clearly aware of one’s own ignorance is rather painful affair, so by creating certain vision, or view how things are, one escapes fear connected with incomprehensibility.
Thus, when human beings encounter alternate belief systems or worldviews, they are experienced as threats—first because each argues for an ultimate truth at least somewhat different from one’s own, and second because the very fact of a plurality of belief systems or worldviews indirectly reveals that one’s own “project” is merely a local and arbitrary construct, a “vital lie” of culture and character, built for protection against the terrifying realities of mortality.32 Because of this we are led, according to Becker, to try to defuse the threat that “otherness” poses to our own immortalizing hero systems, and we pursue this in various ways. We may attempt to convert others to our own beliefs. We may seek to accommodate other points of view, by looking for and finding aspects of them that seem compatible with our own. A cruder, but common, strategy is to denigrate others who do not share our belief systems, belittling and dehumanizing the “others.” Then, as a most thorough solution, we can wage war, attempting to vanquish or even annihilate those whose differences threaten to expose the artificial character of our own “system” for transcending death. Through humiliating, damaging, and defeating the enemy; through mass deportations; through ethnic cleansing and genocide, we can at once eliminate threats to our heroic self-esteem and prove that it is we who are living and fighting in the service of everlasting truth.
Transcendence and History The Search for Ultimacy from Ancient Societies to Postmodernity by Glenn Hughes
Now you may be sure that any kind of such evidence will not work for materialist or atheist who is emotionally attached to his view. Atheist who on the first place is interested in sensual gratification can be convinced, but one who enjoys idea that the death is the end of consciousness, unlikely - the more he dislikes idea of rebirth the less he will be interested in such evidence, or perhaps it is proper to say that he will employ all the methods available to neutralise cognitive dissonance.
So generally I would not attach any great importance to such evidence but simply emphasize faculty of faith. If Lord Buddha says there is rebirth, why boder to search for evidence? 
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Many people are attracted to Buddhism due to kalama sutta which can be compared to scientific method of don’t just rely on tradition/ text books/ papers, or logic/ building up the physics laws to make logical predictions, but experiments/ when one knows for oneself that…
So rebirth evidences is the next best thing compared to direct past life recall for evidences.
Or else people might not like it to believe in rebirth with just blind faith that is just because the Buddha said so.
This is especially for those who can clearly differentiate between physicalism and science. The scientific mind of following the evidences would lead them to believing in rebirth.
Of course, there are many types of beginners out there, from those with strong faith to those who wouldn’t believe in rebirth even if they personally have friends and families who have verified past live memories.
In some sense, it’s useful to challenge people’s underlying wrong views to trigger them to come to the right view.
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True. Perhaps I “unconsciously” project my own attitude on others. Blind faith that things are exactly as Lord Buddha says seems to me much more attractive option than trusting my own ideas, no matter how much intellectual effort they cost me.
Are you suggesting that life only exists on this planet in the forms we observe and nowhere else in the universe (or other universes) and in no other form than those we know?
This is also my experience coming into the PhD level of social sciences with a background in math. I came into it with a pretty big bias against qualitative methods (case studies, interviews, etc.), but once I actually started to understand quantitative models and how they’re supposed to link the social world to math, and then back again to inference about the social world, I realized how incredibly weak this inference is, and how many numerous conditions they rely upon to be “true” (whatever meaning one wants to project into this word).
Now I feel that going and talking to people, hearing what they have to say, is a fundamental part of any science that involves humans.
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Hi, may I ask why you are asking me this question? It seems not only completely off topic, but quite beyond the pale.
For this if I were to be serious about it, I would have to take it to the First Nations, express my thoughts and concerns and leave it with them to deal with. I thought from your comments that you did not appear to have read the criticisms of Stevenson’s work. I can see that I was right in my impressions. We support our First Nations. We still don’t really know that much how to interact with them, but we are learning and it’s rare that anyone gets into them without either being in the community or as a highly trained specialist with long term alliances, plus, of course, all the ethics permissions, from the standards board at whatever institution supervises the human research, duly applied for and granted.
I think it’s a reasonable reaction to your questions:
The answer I would give is: Yes heaven and hell is directly known for those with divine eye and choose to direct their attention. And divine eye is sort of an ESP in our terminology. Divine eye is in the suttas, and anuruddha is famous for being foremost in divine eye.
Divine eye can also see other planets, and perhaps Hasantha is suggesting There are more things on heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy
I would recommend reading a lot more cases first rather than go one by one on the cases you have read and try to reinvestigate them for yourself, unless this becomes your hobby or job, which is good in a sense too. Those are the short ones as it’s easier to copy paste and read. The longer cases has more details.
I think it would likely be much harder to independently verify a published case due to
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time’s passing, we dunno how much the person who recalled past life had further interacted with their past families thus making new memories and mixing them all together whereas best research protocol is to have them unmixed.
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Internet. those who are sceptical can easily say new information are found online and adopted into the story of past life.
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Diminishing returns. It’s a lot more effort to contact the individual cases than to read on existing ones and try to see if any of the existing ones satisfies one’s sceptical mind. Of course, a totally disbelieving mind cannot absorb any data. Much like climate deniers cannot face facts. This applies generally not just to any specific person.
Yes, and its not only in Suttas, also Bible teaches about heaven and there are many miracles. And its not only documents from thousands of years that point to this, documents and people from less than hundred years point to this. Which ones? For example, let’s take look at Padre Pio who lived 1887 – 1968
According to the Wikipedia article, there have been many witnesses:
Those close to him attest that he began to manifest several spiritual gifts, including the gifts of healing, bilocation, levitation, prophecy, miracles, extraordinary abstinence from both sleep and nourishment, the ability to read hearts, the gift of tongues, the gift of conversions…
His reported supernatural experiences also include celestial visions, communication with angels and physical fights with Satan and demons.
It is very similar to the suttas:
They wield the many kinds of psychic power: multiplying themselves and becoming one again; … walking on water as if it were earth; flying cross-legged through the sky like a bird; …
They understand the minds of other beings and individuals, having comprehended them with their own mind.
With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, they see sentient beings passing away and being reborn
In the end - what can a person who is unsure if its true or not take from it? Suttas state that for such person it is still better to commit to ethical bodily, verbal and mental conduct, because if there really is heaven as these text state and mention one is liable for their actions.
But if one has faith and love, there are much better promises in Bible:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eonian life.
John 3:16
And in Suttas:
In this teaching there are those who have a degree of faith and love for me. All of them are bound for heaven.
MN22
For example: Kepler 78-B seems to be a planet of magma.
Do you know if there is life on Kepler 78-B? I don’t.
If there was life on Kepler 78-B would it be exactly like life on Earth. No.
Could there be a form of life on a boiling hot planet swimming in boiling rock. Possibly.
The point is asking about Heavens and Hells is coming from the human paradigm and mocking it. Logically, it would be perfectly reasonable to say that we should expect multiple places in the Universe has life, and that life could be in multiple different forms than we know on Earth. Likewise, heavenly beings are described as having bodies like light. Is that possible…yes. Do I know how that works…No. But ridiculing the possibility only highlights the limitations of the anthropocentric misconceptions.
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…and that doesn’t even get into the realsm of life in other dimensions than ours…or other metaverses…etc etc etc
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This is a good point! For the same reason I’m open to life on other planets, I’m open to life on other planes of consciousness, defined by their mix of pleasure and pain.
The first is inferring from the fact that we see life thriving under so many strange conditions right here on earth. The second can be inferred from meditation experience, near death experiences, past life recollections, maybe even psychedelics.
And I mean inference made as to what will probably be found. To really find out one has to actually go there!
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So, much of the story of Anuruddha can be found in the SN, with his claims beginning at
SN 52.6 - And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I directly know the entire galaxy.” Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā sahassaṁ lokaṁ abhijānāmī”ti.
then
SN 52.11 - And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I recollect a thousand eons.” Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā kappasahassaṁ anussarāmī”ti.
SN 52.12 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I wield the many kinds of psychic power: multiplying myself and becoming one again … controlling the body as far as the Brahmā realm.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā anekavihitaṁ iddhividhaṁ paccanubhomi—ekopi hutvā bahudhā homi …pe… yāva brahmalokāpi kāyena vasaṁ vattemī”ti.
SN 52.13 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that, with clairaudience that is purified and superhuman, I hear both kinds of sounds, human and divine, whether near or far.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā dibbāya sotadhātuyā visuddhāya atikkantamānusikāya ubho sadde suṇāmi dibbe ca mānuse ca ye dūre santike cā”ti
SN 52.14 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I understand the minds of other beings and individuals, having comprehended them with my mind. “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā parasattānaṁ parapuggalānaṁ cetasā ceto paricca pajānāmi— I understand mind with greed as ‘mind with greed’ … sarāgaṁ vā cittaṁ ‘sarāgaṁ cittan’ti pajānāmi …pe… I understand unfreed mind as ‘unfreed mind’.” avimuttaṁ vā cittaṁ ‘avimuttaṁ cittan’ti pajānāmī”ti.
SN 52.15 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I truly understand the possible as possible and the impossible as impossible.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā ṭhānañca ṭhānato aṭṭhānañca aṭṭhānato yathābhūtaṁ pajānāmī”ti.
SN 52.16 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I truly understand the result of deeds undertaken in the past, future, and present in terms of grounds and causes.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā atītānāgatapaccuppannānaṁ kammasamādānānaṁ ṭhānaso hetuso vipākaṁ yathābhūtaṁ pajānāmī”ti.
SN 52.17 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I truly understand where all paths of practice lead.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā sabbatthagāminippaṭipadaṁ yathābhūtaṁ pajānāmī”ti.
SN 52.18 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I truly understand the world with its many and diverse elements.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā anekadhātunānādhātulokaṁ yathābhūtaṁ pajānāmī”ti.
SN 52.19 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I truly understand the diverse convictions of sentient beings.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā sattānaṁ nānādhimuttikataṁ yathābhūtaṁ pajānāmī”ti.
SN 52.20 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I truly understand the faculties of other sentient beings and other individuals after comprehending them with my mind.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā parasattānaṁ parapuggalānaṁ indriyaparopariyattaṁ yathābhūtaṁ pajānāmī”ti.
SN 52.21 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I truly understand corruption, cleansing, and emergence regarding the absorptions, liberations, immersions, and attainments.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā jhānavimokkhasamādhisamāpattīnaṁ saṅkilesaṁ vodānaṁ vuṭṭhānaṁ yathābhūtaṁ pajānāmī”ti.
SN 52.22 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I recollect my many kinds of past lives, with features and details.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā anekavihitaṁ pubbenivāsaṁ anussarāmi, seyyathidaṁ—ekampi jātiṁ dvepi jātiyo …pe… iti sākāraṁ sauddesaṁ anekavihitaṁ pubbenivāsaṁ anussarāmī”ti.
SN 52.23 - “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, I understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena satte passāmi cavamāne upapajjamāne …pe… iti dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena yathākammūpage satte pajānāmī”ti.
SN 52.24 “… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I realized the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And I live having realized it with my own insight due to the ending of defilements.” “Imesañca panāhaṁ, āvuso, catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā āsavānaṁ khayā anāsavaṁ cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharāmī”ti
The story continues with
MN 32 - What kind of mendicant would beautify this park?” kathaṁrūpena, āvuso ānanda, bhikkhunā gosiṅgasālavanaṁ sobheyyā”ti? …
When he had spoken, Sāriputta said to Anuruddha, Evaṁ vutte, āyasmā sāriputto āyasmantaṁ anuruddhaṁ etadavoca: “Reverend Anuruddha, Revata has answered by speaking from his heart. “byākataṁ kho, āvuso anuruddha, āyasmatā revatena yathāsakaṁ paṭibhānaṁ.
And now we ask you the same question.” Tattha dāni mayaṁ āyasmantaṁ anuruddhaṁ pucchāma: ‘ramaṇīyaṁ, āvuso anuruddha, gosiṅgasālavanaṁ, dosinā ratti, sabbaphāliphullā sālā, dibbā, maññe, gandhā sampavanti; kathaṁrūpena, āvuso anuruddha, bhikkhunā gosiṅgasālavanaṁ sobheyyā’”ti?
“Reverend Sāriputta, it’s a mendicant who surveys a thousand worlds with clairvoyance that is purified and surpasses the human, “Idhāvuso sāriputta, bhikkhu dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena sahassaṁ lokānaṁ voloketi. just as a person with clear eyes could survey a thousand orbits from the upper floor of a royal longhouse. Seyyathāpi, āvuso sāriputta, cakkhumā puriso uparipāsādavaragato sahassaṁ nemimaṇḍalānaṁ volokeyya; evameva kho, āvuso sāriputta, bhikkhu dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena sahassaṁ lokānaṁ voloketi.
That’s the kind of mendicant who would beautify this park.” Evarūpena kho, āvuso sāriputta, bhikkhunā gosiṅgasālavanaṁ sobheyyā”ti.
Then it progresses to
AN 3.130 - “Here’s the thing, Reverend Sāriputta. With clairvoyance that is purified and surpasses the human, I survey the thousandfold galaxy. “idhāhaṁ, āvuso sāriputta, dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena sahassaṁ lokaṁ olokemi.
My energy is roused up and unflagging, my mindfulness is established and lucid, my body is tranquil and undisturbed, and my mind is immersed in samādhi. Āraddhaṁ kho pana me vīriyaṁ asallīnaṁ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggaṁ.
But my mind is not freed from the defilements by not grasping.” Atha ca pana me nānupādāya āsavehi cittaṁ vimuccatī”ti.
“Well, Reverend Anuruddha, when you say: “Yaṁ kho te, āvuso anuruddha, evaṁ hoti: ‘With clairvoyance that is purified and surpasses the human, I survey the entire galaxy,’ that’s your conceit. ‘ahaṁ dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena sahassaṁ lokaṁ volokemī’ti, idaṁ te mānasmiṁ.
And when you say: Yampi te, āvuso anuruddha, evaṁ hoti: ‘My energy is roused up and unflagging, my mindfulness is established and lucid, my body is tranquil and undisturbed, and my mind is immersed in samādhi,’ that’s your restlessness. ‘āraddhaṁ kho pana me vīriyaṁ asallīnaṁ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggan’ti, idaṁ te uddhaccasmiṁ. And when you say: Yampi te, āvuso anuruddha, evaṁ hoti:
‘But my mind is not freed from the defilements by not grasping,’ that’s your remorse. ‘atha ca pana me nānupādāya āsavehi cittaṁ vimuccatī’ti, idaṁ te kukkuccasmiṁ.
It would be good to give up these three things. Ignore them and apply your mind to freedom from death.” Sādhu vatāyasmā anuruddho ime tayo dhamme pahāya, ime tayo dhamme amanasikaritvā amatāya dhātuyā cittaṁ upasaṁharatū”ti.
After some time Anuruddha gave up these three things. Ignoring them, he applied his mind to freedom from death. Atha kho āyasmā anuruddho aparena samayena ime tayo dhamme pahāya, ime tayo dhamme amanasikaritvā amatāya dhātuyā cittaṁ upasaṁhari. …
And forks in the narrative with
AN 8.30 - … Well then, Anuruddha, you should also reflect on the following eighth thought of a great man: Tena hi tvaṁ, anuruddha, imampi aṭṭhamaṁ mahāpurisavitakkaṁ vitakkehi:
‘This teaching is for those who don’t enjoy proliferating and don’t like to proliferate, not for those who enjoy proliferating and like to proliferate.’ ‘nippapañcārāmassāyaṁ dhammo nippapañcaratino, nāyaṁ dhammo papañcārāmassa papañcaratino’ti.
First you’ll reflect on these eight thoughts of a great man. Then whenever you want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, you’ll enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Yato kho tvaṁ, anuruddha, ime aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, tato tvaṁ, anuruddha, yāvadeva ākaṅkhissasi, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharissasi.
You’ll enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and mind at one, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. Yato kho tvaṁ, anuruddha, ime aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, tato tvaṁ, anuruddha, yāvadeva ākaṅkhissasi, vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharissasi.
You’ll enter and remain in the third absorption, where you’ll meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ Yato kho tvaṁ, anuruddha, ime aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, tato tvaṁ, anuruddha, yāvadeva ākaṅkhissasi, pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharissasi sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṁvedissasi yaṁ taṁ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharissasi.
Giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, you’ll enter and remain in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. Yato kho tvaṁ, anuruddha, ime aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, tato tvaṁ, anuruddha, yāvadeva ākaṅkhissasi, sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṁ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṁ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṁ catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharissasi.
First you’ll reflect on these eight thoughts of a great man, and you’ll get the four absorptions—blissful meditations in the present life that belong to the higher mind—when you want, without trouble or difficulty.
Then as you live contented your rag robe will seem to you like a chest full of garments of different colors seems to a householder or householder’s child. Yato kho tvaṁ, anuruddha, ime ca aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, imesañca catunnaṁ jhānānaṁ ābhicetasikānaṁ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṁ nikāmalābhī bhavissasi akicchalābhī akasiralābhī, tato tuyhaṁ, anuruddha, seyyathāpi nāma gahapatissa vā gahapatiputtassa vā nānārattānaṁ dussānaṁ dussakaraṇḍako pūro;
It will be for your enjoyment, relief, and comfort, and for alighting upon extinguishment. evamevaṁ te paṁsukūlacīvaraṁ khāyissati santuṭṭhassa viharato ratiyā aparitassāya phāsuvihārāya okkamanāya nibbānassa.
As you live contented your scraps of almsfood will seem to you like boiled fine rice with the dark grains picked out, served with many soups and sauces seems to a householder or householder’s child. Yato kho tvaṁ, anuruddha, ime ca aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, imesañca catunnaṁ jhānānaṁ ābhicetasikānaṁ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṁ nikāmalābhī bhavissasi akicchalābhī akasiralābhī, tato tuyhaṁ, anuruddha, seyyathāpi nāma gahapatissa vā gahapatiputtassa vā sālīnaṁ odano vicitakāḷako anekasūpo anekabyañjano;
It will be for your enjoyment, relief, and comfort, and for alighting upon extinguishment. evamevaṁ te piṇḍiyālopabhojanaṁ khāyissati santuṭṭhassa viharato ratiyā aparitassāya phāsuvihārāya okkamanāya nibbānassa.
As you live contented your lodging at the root of a tree will seem to you like a bungalow, plastered inside and out, draft-free, with latches fastened and windows shuttered seems to a householder or householder’s child. Yato kho tvaṁ, anuruddha, ime ca aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, imesañca catunnaṁ jhānānaṁ ābhicetasikānaṁ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṁ nikāmalābhī bhavissasi akicchalābhī akasiralābhī, tato tuyhaṁ, anuruddha, seyyathāpi nāma gahapatissa vā gahapatiputtassa vā kūṭāgāraṁ ullittāvalittaṁ nivātaṁ phusitaggaḷaṁ pihitavātapānaṁ;
It will be for your enjoyment, relief, and comfort, and for alighting upon extinguishment. evamevaṁ te rukkhamūlasenāsanaṁ khāyissati santuṭṭhassa viharato ratiyā aparitassāya phāsuvihārāya okkamanāya nibbānassa.
As you live contented your lodging at the root of a tree will seem to you like a couch spread with woolen covers—shag-piled, pure white, or embroidered with flowers—and spread with a fine deer hide, with a canopy above and red pillows at both ends seems to a householder or householder’s child. Yato kho tvaṁ, anuruddha, ime ca aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, imesañca catunnaṁ jhānānaṁ ābhicetasikānaṁ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṁ nikāmalābhī bhavissasi akicchalābhī akasiralābhī, tato tuyhaṁ, anuruddha, seyyathāpi nāma gahapatissa vā gahapatiputtassa vā pallaṅko gonakatthato paṭikatthato paṭalikatthato kadalimigapavarapaccattharaṇo sauttaracchado ubhatolohitakūpadhāno;
It will be for your enjoyment, relief, and comfort, and for alighting upon extinguishment. evamevaṁ te tiṇasanthārakasayanāsanaṁ khāyissati santuṭṭhassa viharato ratiyā aparitassāya phāsuvihārāya okkamanāya nibbānassa.
As you live contented your rancid urine as medicine will seem to you like various medicines—ghee, butter, oil, honey, and molasses—seem to a householder or householder’s child. Yato kho tvaṁ, anuruddha, ime ca aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, imesañca catunnaṁ jhānānaṁ ābhicetasikānaṁ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṁ nikāmalābhī bhavissasi akicchalābhī akasiralābhī, tato tuyhaṁ, anuruddha, seyyathāpi nāma gahapatissa vā gahapatiputtassa vā nānābhesajjāni, seyyathidaṁ—sappi navanītaṁ telaṁ madhu phāṇitaṁ;
It will be for your enjoyment, relief, and comfort, and for alighting upon extinguishment. evamevaṁ te pūtimuttabhesajjaṁ khāyissati santuṭṭhassa viharato ratiyā aparitassāya phāsuvihārāya okkamanāya nibbānassa.
Well then, Anuruddha, for the next rainy season residence you should stay right here in the land of the Cetīs in the Eastern Bamboo Park.” Tena hi tvaṁ, anuruddha, āyatikampi vassāvāsaṁ idheva cetīsu pācīnavaṁsadāye vihareyyāsī”ti. …
That’s the bare bones.
Now, I would like to pick up on
“Reverend Sāriputta, it’s a mendicant who surveys a thousand worlds with clairvoyance that is purified and surpasses the human, “Idhāvuso sāriputta, bhikkhu dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena sahassaṁ lokānaṁ voloketi. just as a person with clear eyes could survey a thousand orbits from the upper floor of a royal longhouse. Seyyathāpi, āvuso sāriputta, cakkhumā puriso uparipāsādavaragato sahassaṁ nemimaṇḍalānaṁ volokeyya; evameva kho, āvuso sāriputta, bhikkhu dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena sahassaṁ lokānaṁ voloketi.
And point to the Avataṃsaka Sutra, which is associated with Fazang and the Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana, by Ashvaghosha, among other things.
The Flower Garland Sutra is renowned for its description of the cosmic, or adi Buddha, Vairocana and his interpenetrating multiverses of Buddhas. For instance,
In all atoms of all lands
Buddha enters, each and every one,
Producing miracle displays for sentient beings:
Such is the way of Vairocana. . . .
The techniques of the Buddhas are inconceivable,
All appearing in accord with beings’ minds. . . .
In each atom the Buddhas of all times
Appear, according to inclinations;
While their essential nature neither comes nor goes,
By their vow power they pervade the worlds.
Here is an excerpt from a very well known introduction to the the Flower Garland Sutra that I took this snippet from.
As you are all aware, film has, for a long time, conceptualized interpenetrating universes in many different ways, with people, in whatever visualized form, slipping back and forth across them.
Often films that do this are said to have forking path narratives. Kurosawa’s Rashomon (1950, based on an Akutagawa short story) is, if not the first forking path narrative in film, certainly the classical example for the genre.
Alternately, Luis Borges, with his labyrinthine plot structures in The Garden of Forking Paths (1941 El jardín de senderos que se bifurcan), is often cited as the source out of which this type of narrative construction developed.
The most recent contemporary statement (s) of multiverses (since this contains statements in statements in statements) in popular culture that comes to mind is a film called Source Code (2011) with Jake Gyllenhaal. It uses anxieties over AI and surveillance regimes (discipline and punish) and narrates the emergence of human consciousness and aspiration to “the good life” (which Cavell identifies as a hallmark of Hollywood melodrama) in an “overcoming” of what are thought to be the limits of an advanced technology that inserts a dead soldier’s consciousness into repeat surface existences …
Since this type of narrative is often used to explore subjective experience and theories of self, to a certain extent its multiverses (forking paths) end up clinched together by some statement. Source Code uses Anish Kapoor’s famous Cloud Gate sculpture in Chicago for that. As a typical Hollywod film Source Code knows what it knows, and so indexes its own statement. Meaning, you actually have to watch it.
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Perhaps, but that is not the argument I was making. I was saying that the “researchers” in question superficially follow some of the norms of publishing science. They publish in “journals”. They use scientific jargon. But then you look at the journals and see the same people that write the articles are also the editors and publishers. And they never, ever, publish in mainstream journals. Their books are published by companies set up by the authors to publish their own work. If this were ever to be judged on mainstream criteria it would be called scientific fraud. Any scientist can confirm this, but there don’t seem to be any in this discussion, eh?
The lack of causal explanation is a separate issue. And your anecdotal argument simply doesn’t apply to scientific publishing. Causal explanations are the principle output of science. If you don’t have even a provision or speculative explanation of the phenomenon you are studying, then you are not doing science. And you certainly could not publish anything.
[quote=“bran, post:63, topic:32941”]
These studies are typical science, don’t have to give explanations to why, and do give testable predictions for some dimensions[/quote]
No. This is simply a mistake. These studies resemble science and they fool a lot of lay people with no science education. But they are in no way “typical” of science. This is what the aesthetic fallacy means. It means that something appears to be science, but on examination this appearance is merely superficial way. Rather reincarnation research is pseudoscience. And the aesthetic fallacy is what happens when we treat pseudoscience as real science. As here.
And btw, if you have no explanation for the phenomena, you cannot make a testable prediction. Testable predictions emerge from causal explanations. If Stevenson and co are making predictions, then they do have a theory. They have simply never published or discussed that theory. And there is another fact in want of an explanation.
Your example isn’t a testable prediction. It assumes that a kid telling a story is recalling a past-life. Something that is physically impossible. You are basically saying that each one of these children performed a series of miracles. And Hume nailed this down 300 years ago:
“No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish.” (From Of Miracles, 1748)
And this is why you need to explain your belief. This part is not trivial. And if you really understood science, then instead of all this hand waving and prevaricating that you are offering, you’d just tell me what the explanation is. But the fact is that you have no explanation for your article of faith, and being an article of faith, you don’t feel you even need an explanation. This is not science. You are engaged in magical thinking.
Some of the things that must be explained for any person to take reincarnation seriously include
- Where are memories stored if not in the brain? I can give you a detailed explanation of how memories are formed, stored, and recalled. And at every point the brain is involved. And brain damage to the relevant brain structures predictably causes faults in memory. Etc.
You are saying that some infants can recall memories from their previous brain. And if you want me to take you seriously, then you need to come up with a causal explanation of memory that not only explains what mainstream scientists observe but also allows for the magic of recalling memories stored in a brain that has died and decayed (or been incinerated). At present no such theory exists.
I’m open to being persuaded that memories are stored in some supernatural way, I just want to see evidence of the effect you claim is operating in children aged 4-6 but not in anyone else.
- How does an infant come to possess a highly advanced magical power (one of the six abhijñā) that was technically available to any Arhat, but was in practice only ever wielded by the Buddha?
Since an arahant is not reborn, none of the children involved could claim to have developed this highly advanced magical ability So how do they come to possess this most advanced of all Buddhist magic that is dependent on perfecting the eightfold path at a minimum?
- Edit: After writing this I saw that someone has found a passage in which Anuruddha claims to have this highly advanced magical ability as a result of years of intensive practice. But he only claims to know, he doesn’t demonstrate. So I think my comment is still accurate. No one wields this power in a Buddhist text, except the Bhagavan.
- Why only infants and why do they lose this ability at age six?
This is extremely puzzling. Certainly a child’s brain has a lot of developing to do and is constantly growing and changing, but nothing major like the synaptic pruning that occurs in adolescence occurs at age 6. So why is 6 the cut off and not 7? What is about the 6 year old child’s brain that they can do this highly advanced magic and at 7 they cannot. Indeed, why is there a cut off at all? I’m no expert in child development, but I’ve read plenty of brain science and 6 just doesn’t seem that significant in this sense.
As a side issue for the religious conservatives amongst us, why are no infants mentioned in any Buddhist text as possessing this remarkable advanced magic power? With all the textual fundamentalism that dominates this forum, where are the passages from Pāli to back up this claim? Every other claim you guys make is amply supplied with what “the Buddha said” about it. The Buddha did not say that children could possess this ability. He said that arhats can possess it, once they have mastered the 8-fold path.
Well, Stevenson claims many things. But he hasn’t shown anything. The only people persuaded by Stevenson et al already believed in reincarnation to start with: which is as clear cut an example of confirmation bias as one could wish to illustrate the fallacy.
I think you are right as far as arguments on religious forums go: here you can talk about correlations all day long and your audience will lap it up. But this is simply not the case in scientific communication.
If you cannot explain a correlation then, by the standards of scientific publishing you have nothing of interest to say. Why do you think we constantly chant the mantra “Correlation is not causation”? Merely noting a correlation is of no interest to anyone in the scientific community (or me). And this may explain why none of the reincarnation crowd can get published in real science journal.
I don’t get why people who have adopted this magical thinking even feel the need to grasp at pseudo-science and Hindu reincarnation narratives. I’m increasingly of the opinion that something about Buddhism makes Buddhists extremely anxious about being inadvertently wrong (or perhaps it is an inferiority complex?). As as a result, a great deal of time and energy goes into proving that Buddhism is true. Questioning articles of faith (like reincarnation) excites a great deal of hostility from this crowd. I’m constantly being put on trial by you lot for my heterodox beliefs (which I have always found extremely tedious).
As I’ve said before, and in parallel to Buddhism, one cannot understand science unless one has practiced it for many years under a qualified teacher (which I have). It’s apparent that the people arguing for reincarnation science are extremely vague about what science is or how it works in practice. We don’t accept armchair commentator on Buddhism as authoritative, but every Buddhist I’ve met considers themselves an expert on science. I find it weird that more people don’t find this weird.
But look. If you guys want to believe in reincarnation, and consume pseudo-science then that is your prerogative. And in this religious forum you will obviously find plenty of other people who share your belief in reincarnation. That’s fine as far as I’m concerned. Good luck with it.
But you are inconsistent.
Most of the time you guys (on Sutta Central) denounce science as “materialism”, “physicalism”, and (more recently) “positivism”. And you think science has nothing to tell us about “consciousness” etc. According to one contributor “science is just a set of beliefs”. And they said this using a computer!
If science really were “just a set of beliefs” how could it be accurate to 12 decimal places? How did we ever invent transistors and integrated circuits and turn them into computers? The fact is that science is practical because it works in practice. This computer is solid evidence of that. Science is a set of justified beliefs; justified on the pragmatic grounds that they mutually confirm each other, provide useful explanations, and make accurate predictions. Your computer and the internet are ample proof of this.
It’s internally consistent for religieux to denounce the most comprehensive and successful knowledge seeking project humanity has ever undertaken as “mere physicalism” in one breath and then sing the praises of pseudoscience in the next because it agrees with your magical worldview. But it isn’t consistent in any broader sense.
Taken as a whole, the practical knowledge we have gained about the world we live in tells us that reincarnation is not possible. The idea that memories from previous brains (now dead and decayed/incinerated) are available to a tiny subset of children aged 4-6 and no one else, not even the famous arahants of Pāli mythology is not possible. And since I can think of a simpler explanation (Stevenson is a fraud and you guys are chumps) I see no reason to believe in the impossible. Occam’s razor applies.
The traditional Buddhist belief in rebirth was never based on the testimony of children (actually depictions of children in Buddhist texts are quite rare). As I have repeatedly pointed out, the belief that infants can remember their past-lives is not found in any Buddhist text of any kind. Worse, the doctrine of rebirth that Stevenson and co promote is wholly inconsistent with traditional Buddhist accounts of rebirth. Stevenson is an ātmavādin (a Hindu basically) and anyone who promotes his work (and that of his cronies) is promoting an ātmavāda.
The Stevenson approach is incoherent both as science and as Buddhism.
The desire to believe in a definite afterlife with continuity of memories is a śāśvatavāda. You wish to make memories into some kind of enduring entity. The irony of this is that you cannot treat a memory as a thing in Pāli. There are several verbs that denote “remembering”, but there is no noun meaning “a memory”.
People complain that my view is a ucchedavāda, but at least I am consistent with scientific observation. Your view is consistent with neither science nor any Buddhist tradition that I know of. Your view is at once scientifically false and a religious heresy. I wish you good luck with that.
I’ll leave you with a quote from Galen Strawson…
“At the root of the muddle [about consciousness] lies an inability to overcome the Very Large Mistake so clearly identified by Eddington and others in the 1920s—not to mention the lovely Irishman John Toland in 1704, Anthony Collins in 1707, Hume in 1739, Priestley in 1777–8, and many others. The mistake is to think we know enough about the nature of physical reality to have any good reason to think that consciousness can’t be physical. It seems to be stamped so deeply in us, by our everyday experience of matter as lumpen stuff, that not even appreciation of the extraordinary facts of current physics can weaken its hold.” - Galen Strawson. ‘The consciousness myth (revised).’ The Times Literary Supplement 27 February 2015 (no. 5839 pp. 14–15) [emphasis added]
I think you skipped reading my comments up there that provides 2 texts of spontaneous recall of past lives without being an arahant:
Also, according Pa Auk tradition, past life recall can even be done with access concentration, not even first absorption Jhāna.
I explained the difference between rebirth and reincarnation here.
You are trapped into scientism, that is to say just because science investigate causal relationship between physical things, it supports phsyicalism and it’s a natural paradigm to use physicalism to reason and make predictions in science. But it doesn’t follow that all possible things must be within physicalism. In particular for investigation of things related to mind, we need dualism and a relationship between mind and matter. That’s the dependent origination. That’s how rebirth happens, the mechanism for it and it inherently is incompatible with physicalism as it involves the mind, not just as a software for the hardware of the brain.
Scientism mixes up physicalism and science and considers physicalism and their lens of judging data, instead of scientific method of following the evidences.
See more here: Evidence for Rebirth - #77 by NgXinZhao
The researchers at this field suggests that new memories crowd out old ones. It’s also a commonly repeated answer by monks, recall where you are exactly 10 years 11 months ago, what you ate, what you did, without using technology or diary. Most of us already forgot this life, not need to mention previous life.
Read the cases, there are people who still remember well into their adulthood.
Can they? Wouldn’t the mainstream journals be of the same thinking like you and use physicalism to judge the data instead of looking at it without bias? I don’t think they managed to publish in mainstream. Even now that they publish at all, most mainstream people don’t read their things. Why? Because of the influence of the view of phsyicalism/annihilationism.
You’re heavily using scientific findings to support physicalism, whereas one should clearly separate the philosophy from the method of systemically finding out the causal relationship between physical phenomenon. Physicalism cannot be proven and can be falsified. I believe I already linked this above so read up how it’s falsified.
Quantum physics have dozens of interpretation with different causal explainations of the maths. And the quantum interpretation is considered by most as philosophy for being untestable.
Can cosmologist and astrophysicist predict when the next supernova will happen? Or do they have to wait until a supernova happen and then observe? Or LIGO with the blackholes mergers. Can paleontologist predict where they can dig out the next fossils? Or they just have to investigate each fossils and piece the puzzle together?
Rebirth researchers actually can find and interview past life families not like paleontologist and thus gather better data.
We have to adopt science to the subject of study.
For rebirth, the very fact that there can be people recalling past life is a good test of rebirth. If rebirth were false and everyone dies and doesn’t get reborn automatically at death, we would predict and expect no such cases arises, including from parents who doesn’t believe in rebirth but their children present too much evidences for them to ignore.
The alternative hypothesis of rebirth is true is preferred due to the null hypothesis of no rebirth being falsified or unable to explain the data.
Read the researches, lots of alternative explainations of psy phenomena (which also goes against physicalism) cannot explain the data as well as simple rebirth.
P.S.
Just thought of this after writing the above.
Prediction of rebirth cases? If there is no rebirth, the children’s claim should be more random and more misses than hit, certainly not hits until more than 90% of the details are right. And can be found in the real world. Why don’t debunkers actually try to create a fake past life story complete with details of where they lived, the names of their past families who lived there, in that exact house, the treasure that was buried that no one else knows, and point to that ground, and dig it out for people, and it must be a location that the person who claimed to remember past live had never been to in this life before. And do this thousands of times to have an alternative statistics to compare with genuine rebirth cases? Why don’t the researchers do it then? Because no one who have read the cases deemed such an experiment actually is needed. They are strong enough.
The verification of the predictions of the children’s details. This is the things science likes. The trills. When we solve for physics equations and can predict the outcome and experiments verifies it, we accept the theory the prediction is based on.
Cases after cases of verified predictions of children recalling past lives. Too bad those who are influenced by annihilation/phsyicalism view needs so much convincing to read, and I think perhaps even so, they wouldn’t read.
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