Experience seeking

The Watercooler
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Nobody gets anything as a consequence of waking up.

There’s the loss of ignorance which is not a ‘thing’ or state that is acquired or experienced by anyone. It cannot be reduced to an experience of any kind. Experiences are seen clearly in the light of awakening.

The path is not about experience seeking.

Powerful and transformative experiences do take place as natural stillness deepens and insights arise.

When we are looking for things to blow us away or, take away (obliterate) our suffering there is to much craving and/or aversion for the mind to deeply settle (naturally).

Suffering does not have to be destroyed through experience seeking. It needs to be understood and the cause let go of.

Everything begins to calm down and wisdom and a sense of well-being arises as a consequence - cause and effect.

There’s no need to be an experience seeker - it’s not compulsory. Waking up is a natural process that happens by itself. Experiences come and go, ordinary and profound and then, everything stops.

In the ending of experience there is the ending of the so-called subject of experience. This will lead to the ending of becoming - of coming to any form of experience - to any state of being.

“Reverend, I say it’s not possible to know or see or reach the end of the world by (traveling) to a place where there’s no being born, growing old, dying, passing away, or being reborn. But I also say there’s no making an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. For it is in this fathom-long carcass with its perception and mind that I describe the world, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation.

The end of the world can never
be reached by (traveling).
But without reaching the end of the world,
there’s no release from suffering…

A peaceful one, knowing the end of the world,
does not hope for this world or the next.” - Rohitassa Sutta

In this fathom-long body is the ‘world’. It’s in ‘this’ world - the world that the Buddha is pointing to - where everything stops.

Do we travel in this world? Does anyone travel from one body part to another when attention is placed on - or in - the body?

Attention can be placed on different parts of the body or, moved through it but, there is no traveller who travels inside their body?

There’s no subject of experience that travels from one physical location in the body and then visits another physical location - like a tourist. Attention simply ‘lands’ here and there - is this not the case?

How about seeking different kinds of experiences? Moving from one kind of experience to another through desiring them.

This is experience seeking which is actually a restlessness to get something. It’s a sense of lack that drives behaviour. It leads to grasping and, becoming.

Who is actually engaging in this activity? Or, is it just a conditioned process unfolding?

Am ‘I’ having a good meditation, am ‘I’ doing it right, do ‘I’ like this experience, this is all noise in the mind. It hinders the arising of natural stillness.

Without natural stillness how is there going to be clarity. How is awakening possible in this frame of reference - I need to experience enlightenment through seeking it?

Nibbana is then conceived of as the ultimate experience - the ultimate travel destination. Then, the mental absorptions are conceived of as travel destinations along the way. They are sort after! This is experience seeking not the ‘stages’ of letting go.

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Since I myself seek to experience the end of suffering , might we perhaps reword this slightly? For example, something that brings out the endless craving of the bored:

“The path is not about craving for and clinging to a stream of new experiences”

:pray:

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Might this be reworded somehow or, at least, pay attention to the underlying assumption that generates the activity of experience seeking, more becoming and needless suffering?

I myself ‘seek to experience’ is just another way of saying ‘experience seeking’? It seems fairly obvious?

And then you said:

You said:

The end of suffering is not an ‘experience’ its an awakening to the nature of - any and every - kind of experience. It’s a different and radically new relationship to experience itself.

Therefore, if there appears to be an ‘I’ - myself - who seeks to EXPERIENCE the end of suffering, this would seem like a pointless or misguided exercise?

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To experience something is to live it. To experience the end of suffering literally means to end suffering in this life. To live the end of suffering, we have to go beyond craving and rejecting experience.

Can we say:

The path is to go beyond craving or rejecting experience (i.e., phenomena in relation to self)

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Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu!

Forget about the can ‘we’ say - this is what can be said.

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truth is now, the seeker of truth is a lie

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We have all heard about ‘the noble search’. We all know various forms of search, different approaches to problem solving.

The religious search can often be seen as a kind of experience seeking. It often involves an interest in unusual or transpersonal varieties of experience that are marketed by religious groups and so-called teachers and gurus. I have sampled a few of their wares and some of what is on offer is fascinating - intoxicating.

Those who search in this way may find, or come upon, many different kinds of experiences which they may invest in - make much of - develop a commitment to.

The notion may be lingering in the mind that the ultimate experience is out-there somewhere waiting to be had by the intrepid religious seeker.

There may well be a time and place for this orientation to life and living but not everyone has this fate.

If a search is truly noble then, the penny may drop at some point that there is a completely different possibility that can be explored.

The seeking becomes a finding when there is a cessation of experience seeking. There is a discovery of a process that does not involve seeking but letting-go.

There are stages in this letting go process that gives rise to profound and liberating experiences and insights. Its a natural unfolding, we can’t push the river.

We can’t make a plant grow faster by stretching its stem. There are various fertilisers and growing conditions that helps a plant to grow. The genetic information ‘inside’ the plant is important.

Likewise, there can be good outward supportive conditions for letting go. However, the most important part of the process is the ‘internal’ conditions.

Nibidda is an event that takes place in the inner life of a human being. We can’t fudge nibidda, create it through an act of will. Its simply a way of seeing and experiencing life that has consequences.

Nibidda arises due to a disillusionment with living as a worldling. The vacuity, the hollowness, the senselessness of worldliness.

When there is clear and good teachings that appear in or around this juncture, some inspiration, a clear sense of a different possibility may arise.

This naturally gives rise to a moving away from a blind and useless search for something that cannot be found through experience seeking. There is a movement towards freedom.

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Truth is ‘unknown’ and its not verified through seeking it. Its pointless to start with a conclusion - there may not be such a thing as truth. Truth - if its anything at all - is a discovery not an affirmation.

9

Is now truth enough, or is “unknown” true, and do you need some more of it now to make sure?

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There is ignorance of the way it is - the way things are and, why. This inability to see things clearly is a deluded condition. From this condition of lacking clarity its possible to posit the existence of something-or-other that may be otherwise. Somewhere or some-thing where the delusion and confusion is absent. When the delusion and confusion is no longer present there is a clear seeing of the way it is - not before. There is little point in declaring the existence of a truth - of some kind - when there is no clear understanding of what it is you are referring to. You may be saying something like: things exist. Yippee, that seems to be an irrefutable truth but, so what? There are many people who declare that they know the truth or, the truth exists, and, they know what it is and, it turns out that ‘their’ version of the way it is is at odds with the million other versions proclaimed by countless other truth-knowers. This is just another manifestation of ignorance.

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Who is writing this and who is being explained ?

Who needs it …

Truth is now, stop making the big lie seem like it deserves to be taken for real

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By saying ‘truth is’ you may be saying something like: ‘things exist’. This is also true but it ain’t liberating. The truth of existence is equally true whether there is clarity or confusion. It’s as illuminating as saying: the cat’s got whiskers.

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The more one says the muddier it gets, so why hang out here ? … lot of lies, and it feels like home … :wink:

Actually I have to say I stopped listening to babbling monks and lay folks, the more they babbel, the closer to insanity it gets , and when I say that, it is also known that i’m talking or babbling to myself, and has been doing it for God knows how long … :wink:

I had a nice little insight listening to some ood seekers from another sect and tradition, - and man they where crazy, and i actually felt a bit nauseated by all the drama … But luckily I didn’t turn off and suddenly I got it: They are with all their fears and noises in the same situation as me (it just a matter of different etiquette), and a false dividing line made between me and these dispicable guru seekers went away, and then I was able to hear that their teachers was talking true …

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Its nice when that happens!

“My momma always said, ‘Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you’re gonna get.’” - Forrest Gump

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It’s nice every time I am awake to be happening :slight_smile:

If the teacher is now, then regardless of whom, it must be true

And to clarify: I mostly do my babbling here out of my ongoing practice, so beware of some meditation madness arising also sometimes …

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There are many people called teachers - alive and dead. Some of them are certified, some of them are dodgy and escape the net. Others, have much to offer but, its a mixed bag. Occasionally its possible to come upon people who are ‘clear’ but, for everyone of them, there are many more who are largely clueless. They may have had a few interesting experiences and have become so enamoured by these happenings that they overestimate themselves - big time.

The problem is: we can only ‘see’ from where we happen to find ourselves. If we have a lot of self-confidence in ourselves we may have the impression that all of this is as clear as a bell. It ain’t necessarily so - is it?

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No objections here, and just adding that i have gone through my life so far, and it’s just dumb luck that I hadn’t found this already - and when one thinks about all these moments of “this is not true”, it also gives one the feeling that this has to run it’s course without “me” messin with the momentum that seems to me to be heading for home …

The biggest teacher is the world, because it says just one thing or asks: Have you had enough yet ?

Or, just saying that the mind can teach itself if you let it …

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The point of the thread is experience seeking. When we talk about teachers and teachings, there is an ‘experience’ market. Everyone has been a customer in this market place - with few exceptions.

When we encounter people who talk about the life changing profound experiences of being awakened to the way it is it’s good to be circumspect and look closely at what is actually going on.

Awakening is not an experience of any kind. All experiences are seen in a different light when there is awakening - the profound and the mundane. I hope this is clear and not hard to understand.

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I scrolled through the whole thread looking for the EBT references. Found none.

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How about finding some, if that’s what’s needed?

This often comes to my mind, and it’s very deep EBT

Ehi Passiko - Come and See