Facing west and back to front

Essays
21

Dear Bhante,

I wish to delete my ‘wild’ interpretation. It is tooooooo wild! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Anyway, after searching for the Thai translation for this gatha, I’ve found that many scholars were struggling with the same phrase. :smiley:

One website didn’t translate that phrase at all!!! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

One translated it as:

ขอพวกศากยะและโกลิยะทั้งหลาย
จงได้เข้าเฝ้าพระองค์ที่แม่น้ำโรหิณีอันมีหน้าในภายหลังเถิด
= Let the Sākiyas and the Koḷiyas
have an audience with you at the Rohina River, which has face? later.

*Ajahn Chatchai can’t understand this translation. :confused:

Another:
ขอพวกศากยะและโกลิยะทั้งลาย
จงได้เข้าเฝ้าพระองค์ที่แม่น้ำโรหิณี อันมีปากน้ำอยู่ทางทิศใต้เถิด
= Let the Sākiyas and the Koḷiyas
have an audience with you at the Rohina River, the estuary of which is in the south.

*Ajahn Chatchai said that the word ‘Pacchāmukhaṃ’ here might be interpreted as modifying rohiniyaṃ. So, it can mean Rohina River, which faces the other way (here = south, as rivers flow southward).

Another:
พระประยูรญาติทั้งฝ่ายศากยวงศ์และโกลิยวงศ์จะได้เฝ้าพระองค์
ผู้ผินพระพักตร์ไปทางทิศตะวันออกซึ่งกำลังเสด็จข้ามแม่น้ำโรหิณี
= Your cousins and relatives in both the Sakiya and the Koliya clans can have an audience with you,
who faces east, while crossing the Rohini River.

*Ajahn Chatchai said that as the word Pacchāmukha means looking back, if the translator thought that it modified the Buddha, and the Buddha would be walking from the east to the west, the translator then could interpret that the text above meant the Buddha turn his face to look east. Ajahn disagreed with this interpretation, though.

*However, Aj Chatchai said that if the word Pacchāmukha here modifies the Buddha, it could mean the Buddha would be facing west, as Pacchā might mean west.

This translation project of yours is not only huge but also more than difficult!

With deepest respect for your determination and dedication!

Dheerayupa

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22

Well, thanks so much to both yourself and Phra Ajahn, as well as everyone else who has contributed! At least I know that whatever I finally chose, some people will disagree with me.

At the end of the day, I am inclined to follow the notion that it means “heading west”. This geographically fits both contexts, and has been favored by both Ven Bodhi and KR Norman, the two finest translators into English. The fact that it differs slightly from the normal idiom pacchābhimukha can be easily explained in verse, as words are often altered to fit the meter. The prose is less easy to explain. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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23

Dear Bhante,

It’s natural that people will look at things and judge. :smiley:

One translation I found last night:

ขอให้พวกศากยะและโกลิยะทั้งหลาย
ได้เข้าเฝ้าพระพุทธองค์ที่แม่น้ำโรหิณี
– https://goo.gl/6uiUAp

= Let the Sākiyas and the Koḷiyas
have an audience with you at the Rohina River.

The difference in different versions in Thai seem to stem from the translators’ interpretation of the grammar.

Ajahn Chatchai said that some of Thai Pali scholars said that Pacchāmukhaṃ and Pacchāmukha are different. So, Pacchāmukhaṃ in this sentence: Pacchāmukhaṃ rohiniyaṃ tarantaṃ, should modify the river, not the Buddha.

Ajahn wishes to hear your comment on that. :slight_smile:

With great respect,
Dheerayupa

2 Likes
24

Okay, let’s have a look at the two passages:

So tayā evaṃ ovadīyamāno evaṃ anusāsīyamāno ummaggaṃ gahetvā pacchāmukho gaccheyya.
Instructed like this by you, he might still take the wrong road, heading west.

This is pretty straightforward. Pacchāmukho is nominative singular, an adjective agreeing with the opening so, which is the subject for the optative verb gaccheyya.

Passantu taṃ sākiyā koḷiyā ca,
Let the Sākiyas and Koḷiyas see you,
Pacchāmukhaṃ rohiniyaṃ tarantaṃ.
Heading west across the Rohiṇī river.

In the first line, the subject, or subjects, is the dual nominative plurals sākiyā koḷiyā ca, agreeing with the imperative plural passantu, and taking taṃ (second person singular personal pronoun in accusative) as object.

In the second line, pacchāmukhaṃ is a singular accusative adjective agreeing with taṁ, and also with tarantaṃ, an active present participle acting as adjective (“crossing”).

Rohiniyaṃ is not accusative, but locative singular. Hence it does not agree with “you” (i.e. the Buddha) but refers to the location of the action. Literally it would be something like “crossing west-headed at the Rohini”.

So no, pacchāmukhaṃ doesn’t modify the river, but the Buddha.

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25

Do you have a Pali word for ‘stunned speechless’?

That’s what I’m feeling right now!

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26

atha kho dhīrayūpā upāsikā abbhūtacittajātāya tuṇhī ahosi :blush:

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27

:dizzy_face:

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28

What is the gut?
“The gut (gastrointestinal tract) is the long tube that starts at the mouth and ends at the back passage (anus)”.

Might I suggest that the ‘mouth’ (mukha) mentioned in the sutta is not ‘front-mouth’, but the one behind! So this could read as walking the opposite direction/with their back to the intended direction. Mukha is used in many ways -apaya-mukha -the mouth to hell realms, comes to mind.

I don’t understand how this could be translated as West (unless geographically it West…) I suppose.

with metta