Fear and Dread

Fascinating. That really resonates. :pray:

I’ve noticed myself that shock mitigation requires deep practice with a rational investigation of feelings. In particular, it requires the consideration and acceptance that this is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.

I am reminded of Tanouye Roshi, who told us once that:

In fatal car accidents, it is the right passenger seat that dies the most. If you are driving what would you do if you saw such an accident happening to your car. You are driving. Who will die? Which way will you steer?

That question sank deep and is quite the thought to chew on.

(coughs) listening to DN33 twice every week has taught me quite the visualization in the EBTs:

And what is the effort to preserve? It’s when a mendicant preserves a meditation subject that’s a fine foundation of immersion: the perception of a skeleton, a worm-infested corpse, a livid corpse, a split open corpse, or a bloated corpse. This is called the effort to preserve.

Listening to the suttas is an aural experience and traditionally accompanied by recitation.

5 Likes

Thank you for that. :pray:

3 Likes

I’ve had a few accidents in cars. All non-fatal thankfully. One of the things that I’ve noticed is that they happen very fast. Our body makes the move based on previous habits before conscious volition has a chance to make such decisions.

This is a nice article:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2008/04/mind-decision/amp

But am I correct in understanding that that is something that you’ve seen in the past and now bear in mind, not something that you’ve imagined such as being involved in a fatal car crash or being bitten by a deadly snake?

It’s this imagining things that you don’t know (or cannot recollect) that I am still having a problem with.

3 Likes

Charnel grounds are not readily available to experience with the senses. Yet the internet has images of corpses. The imagination need not work so hard.

4 Likes

I went to a body works exhibition of plastinated bodies once. It was fascinating and knowing that they were real human bodies did offer something slightly more visceral than an episode of CSI. I think I may have desensitised myself through watching too many of horror movies in my youth. :slight_smile:

I had a go on a VR system the other day. I was supposedly in a cage underwater beings attacked by sharks. The experience didn’t really bite though :wink: Standing on the edge of a VR high building tricked me into thinking it might be real and made me feel a bit wary for a second or two until I collected myself though.

3 Likes

They may not be open access, but there are “human body farms” used to research decomposition. YouTube generously provides some time-lapse videos if I’m not mistaken.

6 Likes

This lovely Tiger snake (highly venemous) kindly chose not to bite me yesterday, though my bare shins were within easy striking range. I literally jumped out of my shoes backwards, and he lay his head back down, signaling no more threat… what a kind snake… mortality is only a short distance away!

7 Likes

I think it is very importaint to make a distincion between:

  1. Fear from premature death of physical body (accidents, dangerous animals etc.)
  2. Death as a spiritual process of dissolution and letting go of controling aspcet of the mind

Fear of death as a physical phenomenon is quite healthy. Being afraid of venomous snake can save our life. And dying prematurely, while our paths can be still developed in this precious human existence, knowing the dhamma, is not really wholesome. So it is not bad to fear for our life to survive, so we can progress as much as possible and help others on the path in this very life.

But fear of death as a spiritual process seems a hindrance to me.
Fear of death is closesly associated with jhanic experiences, which can give huge insights into anicca and anatta.
Because jhanic experiences can be associated with dissolution of body and then thoughts, while still remaining conscious.
It can be very scary for the ego, because it has to let go of control, probably for the first time in life. This is what scares people in this stuff, fear of letting go control and their attachments.

Of course for most people, both fears are connected.

But for the wise meditator, one would not fear letting go of control, because one knows it is exactly the thing that causes trouble.
Still, a wise meditator would be scared of venomous snake. It could take away his very precious life in a human body.

Spiritual processes touch different aspect of fear, than fear of death from dangerous animal, car accident etc.

I think buddhism is much more concerned with working with fear from letting go of control and ones life, rather than fear for one body.

Of course when one is not scared of dying as a process and let go of attachments, one would less scared of dying.
But one still would be scared of dangerous animal, because it is natural response of the brain, which is also conductive to path of liberation.

Would be a great loss for the world if most skilled monks would die to snakes instead of teaching :stuck_out_tongue:

I think best practice for death contemplation is actually deep jhana practice connected with standard contemplation of bodily problems, sickness and biological death.

But it is importaint to note that death contemplation as for corpses etc. is aimed more at reducing cravings for the world. It is deep jhana practice that produce fear of death as spiritual process and finally give opportunity to let it go.

Ajahn Brahm speaks a lot about this in his talks. Thanissaro Bhikkhu also had interesting article on fear. Freedom From Fear

PS: Viveka I’m really glad you survived the encounter without scratch :pray:

3 Likes

@Invo Yes you are right.
I should have been more explicit in my post :slightly_smiling_face:
There is nothing beneficial about seeking out risk and danger.
I posted mainly to show that unexpected death can occur at any time, and thus to encourage people to practice “like ones hair is on fire”. I often emphasize this as a counter-point to the complacency that death is a long distance away, and the belief that there is no rush to practice.

:anjal: :dharmawheel: :relieved: :snake:

Ps I am very grateful to that snake, for being kind and tolerant :pray: :smiley:

4 Likes

Yes yes, of course I wasn’t referring to that, all is good :slight_smile: :heart:
I just shared my own general thoughts on the subject :wink: I’m personally much more interested in more profound fear of letting go of entirety of samsara (which is aim of buddhist practice, very closely connected to fear of ultimate “death” I believe), rather than just fear for my biological life.

I think death is a process of losing control of the experience in the mind. So it freaks out the mind like nothing else. It is very “no-self”.

I also contemplate death when in risky situations, exactly like you described. I think it is very importaint to do that, just don’t put ourselves in such situations on purpose, so seems we agree completely :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :anjal:

PS: I think we subconsciously know that we are subject to dualistic (pleasurable and painful) kamma, thats why we are so scared of death. It is like part of our minds remembers that if we don’t get this right, it will get messy again. We’ve been through this countless times according to Buddha Dhamma and I think we are as scared of death as much as of life… at least such is the case for me.
Only understanding of Nibbana as neither death, and neither life, soothe my perspective on it and it gives motivation to practice.

I also think that contemplating death shows us how rich we are right now, being here and learning dhamma. Losing that would be the greatest loss.

3 Likes

:scream_cat: Glad you and the snake are both still alive!

Having had my own “shocked-out-of-skin” frights, I wonder if you might, by any chance, recall that moment of recognition? I’ve been wondering if my own frights happen when my mind is somewhat away…almost as if the shock is of the mind snapping back into place and reconnecting: an unexpected contact exploding into feeling, perception and intention. Jump! :thinking:

2 Likes

Having recently encountered a snake during walking meditation, I can report that:

  1. without the “snap back” (as I was already somewhat mindfully present) the emotional shock was lessened. It wasn’t quite so jarring.
  2. But, that said, my reptilian brain still did its job. I lept back and did experience the concomitant spike in adrenaline
3 Likes

I can recall very clearly :slight_smile:
Because there are many of these snakes where I live - daily encounters during summer, I am used to being very mindful, and scanning is automatic.

This shock occurred, because there was, as you say, a break in mindfulness of this issue. So my mind had registered - no snake (very well camoflaged). Then I had my attention focus elsewhere, up at a tree, while I took 2-3 small steps. It was only a subconscious response to movement in peripheral vision, that caused me to look down. And there about 18 inches from my calf, was the snake in striking position. So I literally jumped backwards, as an automatic response, barely as I had cognised the situation - literally leaving one of my slip on shoes in situ :rofl: So it was this going from 0 danger to 100 danger, it lead to survival responses and the adrenaline spike to go with it. So with regard to

It happened so quick, that the response had begun well before any ‘intention’ had formed. In this sense, it is a survival response that cuts out thinking… ?? Need to go into neuro-psychology to get more accurate descriptions, re instinctual survival reactions :slight_smile:

Usually, I see the snakes before it is so perilous, and watch with awareness and calm.

This is the most dangerous encounter I’ve ever had I think… it was because the snake was ‘restrained’ and didn’t bite, that it turned out ok… But I think this is probably the same snake that has lived under the bungalow for years, but just basking in some late afternoon sunshine in a different place. We have a respectful relationship, when we pass each other within a normal routine,. :smiley: :sweat_smile:

4 Likes

Then we all share this response to snakes! :snake: :eye: :scream_cat:

Regarding ‘intention’, I would then ask this. Was the action intentional or conditioned?

When we are walking a narrow mountain path where every step is taken with care, jumping in any direction when seeing a snake is … undesirable. I propose, from my own experience, that our responses to snakes would alter. We would not startle and jump, for to do so on a mountain path would simply precipitate a certain death of a different kind. Instead, I propose that we would all behave slightly differently according to circumstance. I propose that, despite the appearance of instinctive reaction, that we would intuitively and mindfully adapt our response effortlessly and immediately to mitigate all dangers skillfully. Without thinking, yet with awareness, we would act appropriately. There is a gray zone here. It’s not as simple as “see snake jump”.

What do you think?

2 Likes

Agreed. But sometimes the threat of the snake may be overwhelming regardless of other dangers. Stepping back abruptly and losing a shoe in snake country might easily land you on another snake, but no consideration was given to this by the instinctual mind of @Viveka

Also I think that we can recondition our response (by training) to be one that is generally more appropriate. So potentially an appropriate response is to slow down and spread loving kindness to the snake when we are shocked by the perception of its form and movement rather than allowing the ‘instinctual’ response of jumping back. But this has to be conditioned over a long period of time.

1 Like

What I find fascinating is that the more I meditate, the more awareness infuses that “instinctual mind”. What may have started out as a biological conditioned response evolves into a state of present awareness without thinking. In other words, that training isn’t just programming a new reaction (e.g., “see snake step back”). Instead, the training/meditation/sati fosters insight that manifests as aware and skillful action. Indeed, I believe Viveka will not react exactly the same when she sees the next snake. The shock will be less, and the reaction more skillful. There will, more importantly, be no thinking about “I see a snake. What should I do? Maybe I should stop. Maybe I should jump.” Instead, Viveka will react just as swiftly as she did but with less shock and more skill.

The reason I make this distinction between instinctual and skillful response is that I’ve found that we can choose to treat ourselves as reactive beings (e.g., “see snake jump left”) or we can treat ourselves as sentient beings (e.g., “thank you snake for not killing this body”) in our daily life. In the first case we ask ourselves to always do X when Y happens. In the second case, the mindful/sati case, when Y happens, our responses are skillful and well-suited to circumstance. In both cases, there is action without deliberation, without thinking.

Because of this, I question the distinctions we typically draw between instinctual, thinking and aware behavior. We tend to conflate awareness with thinking. Yet they are different. Awareness does not require thinking. Yet we harbor in our identity views an illusion, an illusion that thinking is awareness.

:snake: :eyes: :heart: :pray: :walking_woman:

“Contact, mendicants, is one end. The origin of contact is the second end. The cessation of contact is the middle. And craving is the seamstress,
for craving weaves one to rebirth in this or that state of existence.

That’s how a mendicant directly knows what should be directly known and completely understands what should be completely understood. Knowing and understanding thus they make an end of suffering in this very life.”
AN6.61

1 Like

For me ‘present awareness without thinking’ is just another biological conditioned response. It’s a response caused by the path, but it’s still conditioned (as opposed to unconditioned).

3 Likes

Yes, I very much agree it is conditioned. The Noble Eightfold Path is conditioned (MN44), so our practice does indeed condition us.

And have you noticed the difference in yourself between reactive conditioning and aware conditioning? One craves an outcome, whereas the other does not.

2 Likes

For me both are still rooted in desire. It’s just that one is more wholesome than the other. But I may not have the level of insight that you do.

2 Likes

I like that phrasing better. :heart:

2 Likes