Thank you. 
That does resemble my rambling and it appears to have an audiobook, which is perfect!
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Following up on Ven. Khemarato’s suggestion, I’ve been listening to this book with interest…and…
I was quite startled to hear the term “flow” from Daniel Kanehman, since I’ve heard and used it as well. Essentially, flow bridges Fast and sLOW effortlessly melding awareness, intuition, perception, consideration and action. This makes sense to me since flow is … immersive. It is exactly the term I was struggling for earlier in this thread.
The question that arises is this.
How does flow handle danger perceived?
I am inclined to think that flow handles danger effortlessly and without shock…that flow, being immersive, results in the following experience:
When this immersion is well developed and cultivated in this way, wherever you walk, you’ll walk comfortably. Wherever you stand, you’ll stand comfortably. Wherever you sit, you’ll sit comfortably. Wherever you lie down, you’ll lie down comfortably.” -AN8.63
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Ah! Now we’re getting somewhere!
(PS: Flow is from Mihály Csíkszentmihályi ^_^)
The perception of danger interupts flow.
However, whether a stimulus is perceived as a threat is itself a conditioned (and thus hackable) factor.
For example, an alarm going off can break your concentration if you’re e.g. playing the violin or coding, but if you’re baking a cake, that alarm may be a ready-to-hand part of your baking equipment: not only not an interuption, but a contribution to your flow.
So, in order to make immersion “uninterruptible” (“well developed and cultivated”) your concentration must take all six senses as the objects of work.
In this way, when a potentially-threatening (“pleasant, painful, or neither-pleasant-nor-painful”) sound, sight, etc enters the field of awareness, instead of being perceived as an interuption to the task-at-hand, the stimulus instead becomes just another part-of-the-work.
Of course, achieving this is extraordinarily difficult! This is why many meditation teachers start with small, stable objects or areas of concentration: the tip of the nose, a mantra, a visualization, etc. Once you get a taste for flow, and start to establish it throughout your day (“from the moment you get up to the moment you go to sleep” as my teacher likes to say) you slowly start to use your mindfulness to pull more and more of your experience back into the meditation: experiencing fewer and fewer events as “distractions” until your flow becomes limitless. And then you’re getting somewhere!
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This is the bit I was trying to communicate. Then it is a matter of working on conditioning of ‘the perception of danger’ and ensuring that it is set at its most ‘beneficial’ depending on goals and aims.
There are of course the stories of immersion being so deep, that a meditator can withstand the effects of flood or fire… etc… I’m happy to leave these as stories 
Got to love playing with the brain and conditioning 
Metta
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That’s right. But it’s not flood or fires that can harm you nearly so much as an unrestrained mind:
Whatever harm an enemy may do to an enemy, or a hater to a hater, an ill-directed mind inflicts on oneself a greater harm.
~ Dhp 42
Neither in the sky nor in mid-ocean, nor by entering into mountain clefts, nowhere in the world is there a place where one may escape the results of evil deeds.
~ Dhp 127
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Thank you, Venerables. 
Only one venerable in this conversation 
And a few of us keen students 
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I’m a bit confused Bhante. What’s the difference between mindfulness and flow? And what would be the best Pali word for flow?
I think that the labelling as ‘flow’ was maybe around before that? … In a sort of Go with the flow, Daddy O beat poet /jazz sort of way.
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I’m not sure! What do you think?
Sure. “Flōwan” even existed in Old English, from “flouwen” in Old High German, from the PIE root “pleu” in truly ancient times (from whence the Pali plava also comes?)
But Karl was quoting Kanehman, who was explicitly referencing Csikszentmihalyi.
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I don’t know either. Could flow be (8 fold path) samadhi rather than sati? Or could it be samadhi in the more general sense (the 3 meditative bits of the 8 fold path)?
That’s my thinking too. Flow feels more like a result. Effort and mindfulness being what gets you there.
Though, I must concede that I hesitate to say that “Samādhi” = “Flow.” The concept of “Flow” might be broader than “Samādhi” - covering, as it does, many mundane (though pleasurable!) states of consciousness. Certain Pāli-thumping theologians will scoff at deigning “Flow” (or any Western concept!) “equivalent” to something as exalted (read: exotic) as “samādhi” … so I have to be careful what I commit to in public! I hope you understand
[PS: For an example of what I mean, just look at all the flak (a hundred replies and counting) Bhante Sujato is getting for translating nibbāna at all! ]
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I do understand Bhante. My reason for pressing you is because I always try to understand any modern teaching given with respect to my very flawed understanding of the EBTs. This approach usually helps my understanding of the EBTs to grow a little.
I thought all samadhi was mundane Bhante? Is that not correct? Is there samadhi that is supramundane? Jhanas are mundane states right?
But effort and mindfulness can also be understood as ‘results’ themselves and samadhi is also a process (“what gets you there”) - in a dependant origination (“with the arising of this …”) sort of way. What do you think?
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Ah sorry, I was being sloppy with my terms. I meant mundane in the coloquial sense (as in “not jhana”) not in the Buddhist Doctrinal™ sense (“not leading to enlightenment”). At the risk of embarrassing myself further, I will put on my doctrine hat 
and say:
The N8P has a mundane and a supramundane version. So, yes, there is a supramundane jhana (i.e. that leads to extinguishing). That is, after all, the whole point of the N8P, right?
Sure. Like all your other questions, this is technically correct, though I fail to see any practical point here other than you getting the chance to show off your ability to “well, actually” the monk. Of course it’s also a process. Everything is a process.
I suggest that instead of comparing teachings to your limited understanding of the EBTs, that you instead compare them with your own experience. As Ajahn Brahm says, don’t spend your whole time in the restaurant comparing menus: eat the food!
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Ah right. Thank you Bhante 
Sorry it came across like that Bhante. I just wanted to clear up my confusion at what you had written.
I do that as well Bhante. But for me, talking to bhikkhus about their teachings and how they compare to the suttas is the menu stage. Sorry for pressing you.
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Please remember that despite the more relaxed nature of the Watercooler, intended for lighthearted EBT/Buddhism related topics, it is still not an appropriate place for personal practice discussion. Those conversations can be carried out through PM.
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Apology accepted!
Thanks @Nadine 
Sorry if my reply gave the impression I was steering things personal. That was not my intent. I was taking offense at feeling pressured: pressure that has now been apologized for and forgiven! May the light-hearted discussion now resume! Sorry about that everyone!
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Flow in the Kanehman sense provides a natural and contemporary engagement with the EBT concept of samadhi/immersion in that the identity is greatly diminished, as are greed and aversion. Dukkha impedes flow.
Interestingly, if we follow this engagement of understanding further, we rapidly realize that flow taken alone is merely a stick attempting to stand up by itself. Flow alone totters and falls over. This is why the pursuit of flow alone is a dead end. Flow falls over and collapses. Always.
In the EBTs, we see that the Noble Eightfold Path is a subset of the three practices of immersion, ethics and wisdom.
“The three practice categories are not included in the noble eightfold path. Rather, the noble eightfold path is included in the three practice categories. –MN44
From this we understand that in relying on flow alone (used here a crude synonym for immersion), we will have neglected ethics and wisdom. These other two legs of the tripod are required for a stable foundation. We simply cannot build our lives on flow alone. That would be unethical and foolish.
Yet we can simply start with the understanding of flow as a proxy for samadhi and explore that further in the EBTs, deepening our study. In doing so, we start understanding why flow encompases both right and wrong immersion. And that leads to further study and practice:
“Unification of the mind is immersion.
The four kinds of mindfulness meditation are the foundations of immersion.
The four right efforts are the prerequisites for immersion.
The cultivation, development, and making much of these very same things is the development of immersion.” --MN44
Pursued by fear and dread, we seek refuge.
To enter the stream, one must see the flow…
=> 
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Now that I’ve cooled down a bit, I wanted to take the time today to more formally (and publicly) apologize for my touchiness yesterday.
To be absolutely clear: I don’t think you did anything wrong @stu If your honest questions triggered some defensiveness in me, that problem is squarely mine. It was inappropriate for me to project my insecurity onto you and I apologise for the resulting harsh speech.
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Thank you for this simile Karl! I think I see now what @stu meant by:
I think I hyperbolized a bit too far when I claimed that samādhi can become completely stable. It is indeed still a process: subject to arising and ceasing. Even an arahant has to sleep!
So I feel I should amend my previous post to make the more limited claim that samādhi / flow can become something unreliant on perfect external conditions. To get to extinguishing (the truly unconditional mind), one must ride that samādhi to insight: “Right Knowledge”
So, if I may suggest one slight change to your simile, @karl_lew, perhaps it’s better called a tricycle than a tripod!
=> 
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That would be quite…moving. 
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