Fear and Dread

[Viveka]

Hi Stu
They are my personal adaptation to standard death contemplation. I’ve had a very active and adventurous life and had quite a few accidents and close calls. As such, I don’t find it difficult to imagine circumstances like those I’ve mentioned above.

Furthermore, the purpose isn’t to be 100% accurate, but rather to incorporate a realistic and emotional response, rather than just an intellectual understanding about death and it’s process. My aim with this practice is to reduce the ‘shock’ that inevitably comes when one is staring death in the face, with the goal that equanimity can prevail during this time, whenever it may be…

[stu]

For those of us with more sedate life experiences and a lesser imagination I wonder if a way of desensitising ourselves to the shock surrounding death might be to use other peoples imagination through the appropriate use of media. I’m thinking novels, films, theatre, and more realistically through the new virtual reality technologies where we can more realistically put ourselves in those situations and then watch our reactions? What do you think? Could these be incorporated into practice too I wonder? Is there room for practice related fiction in this way?

[Gillian]

Do you know Ven Analāyo’s book Mindfully Facing Disease and Death: Compassionate Advice from Early Buddhist Texts? It is a good starting point. This venerable also has a guided meditations on death here (#3)

Death contemplation is certainly part of the tradition. I have a postcard of a skeleton sitting in meditation that I acquired at a temple in Thailand. The forest monks used to meditate in the village cremation spaces and to this day monks in Thailand can visit mortuaries and sit in on post-mortems. It’s all to do with anicca and jaramarana. Actually, I recall a link posted in this forum to videos of postmortems and decay on YouTube; the text/titles were all in Singhalese so I can’t search for them easily and anyway they’re definitely not for the faint-hearted.

I find as I get older that the fact of dying becomes more relevant and interesting. I really would like to make a good death, so @Viveka’s approach to rehearsing death contemplation is very relevant. I have heard of monks who have skeletons in their kutis to remind them of the inevitable, and I met one who said that he sleeps in a coffin. I mainly follow Ven Anālayo’s meditation which isn’t ghoulish (and, when feeling imaginative, to incorporate aspects of death and decay into my art practice).

[stu]

Thanks for the links Gillian. I’ll certainly have a good look at those.

I agree that death contemplation is part of the tradition. It was just the particular form that @Viveka gave that I was uncertain about. I think that it’s usually all very real in the suttas (in a conventional reality sort of way). So it’s a real skeleton that you sit with and contemplate, or a real bloated body or a real body crawling with maggots. Hence the need to go to a charnel ground (body farm?). It’s not a contemplation of an imagined corpse as far as I understand (or a bloated rubber corpse in an episode of CSI ). Perhaps Ven. Analayo’s book will help me.

@Gillian

and I met one who said that he sleeps in a coffin.

I guess it will save time at the end. Is it against the vinaya to be a vampire? Or a Goth?

[Gillian]

@stu

I guess it will save time at the end.

Very good.
Ah, so visualisation in general isn’t easy for you? Sorry I missed your point. I guess you’d not go well with any of the positive visualisations used in the Tibetan tradition. Reciting AN5.57 might be adequately sufficient … I think this is a personal thing. I think it’s just the way that different people’s minds are wired differently.

[stu]

@Gillian

Ah, so visualisation in general isn’t easy for you?

Yes. I’m much more aural than visual.

@Gillian

I guess you’d not go well with any of the positive visualisations used in the Tibetan tradition.

Unfortunately I couldn’t really take them seriously when I’ve tried them on the past. But visualisations are not practices found in the EBTs are they?

@Gillian

I think it’s just the way that different people’s minds are wired differently.

Yes, but we don’t have the equivalent of visualisations in the aural sphere contained in the EBTs either, or do we? I’d certainly be interested in that if they are there.

[Gillian]

@stu

visualisations are not practices found in the EBTs are they?

I think not.

@stu

we don’t have the equivalent of visualisations in the aural sphere contained in the EBTs either, or do we?

what about the Pali chanting of the suttas that the monks do? I’m not an aural person, but I lived in a community for six months where we chanted twice each day before meditating. (Some BSWA chanting is here. And here is AN5.57 (the Five Remembrances), which encourages us to repetitively remember ‘I am liable to die, I am not exempt from death.’

Actually I’m sure you’re right that neither visualisations nor aural experience are emphasised in the Theravada. I assume this is because of the emphasis on lessening the fascination with the sense doors. … Interesting! … Surely it can be helpful to use either judiciously if we are that way inclined.

[stu]

@Gillian

what about the Pali chanting of the suttas that the monks do?

Ah yes. I love chanting and recitation of suttas. Chanting in Pali is my favoured option over my native English. I also chant in my head, so I guess that might be aiming in the same sort of direction as the practices that @Viveka uses as it recreates the emotional response of actual chanting quite well.

[karl_lew]

@Viveka

reduce the ‘shock’

Fascinating. That really resonates.

I’ve noticed myself that shock mitigation requires deep practice with a rational investigation of feelings. In particular, it requires the consideration and acceptance that this is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.

@stu

how would I know if I got it right?

I am reminded of Tanouye Roshi, who told us once that:

In fatal car accidents, it is the right passenger seat that dies the most. If you are driving what would you do if you saw such an accident happening to your car. You are driving. Who will die? Which way will you steer?

That question sank deep and is quite the thought to chew on.

@Gillian

skeletons in their kutis

@stu

But visualisations are not practices found in the EBTs are they?

(coughs) listening to DN33 twice every week has taught me quite the visualization in the EBTs:

And what is the effort to preserve? It’s when a mendicant preserves a meditation subject that’s a fine foundation of immersion: the perception of a skeleton, a worm-infested corpse, a livid corpse, a split open corpse, or a bloated corpse. This is called the effort to preserve.

Listening to the suttas is an aural experience and traditionally accompanied by recitation.

[Gillian]

@karl_lew

And what is the effort to preserve? It’s when a mendicant preserves a meditation subject that’s a fine foundation of immersion: the perception of a skeleton, a worm-infested corpse, a livid corpse, a split open corpse, or a bloated corpse. This is called the effort to preserve.

Thank you for that.

[stu]

@karl_lew

In fatal car accidents, it is the right passenger seat that dies the most. If you are driving what would you do if you saw such an accident happening to your car. You are driving. Who will die? Which way will you steer?

I’ve had a few accidents in cars. All non-fatal thankfully. One of the things that I’ve noticed is that they happen very fast. Our body makes the move based on previous habits before conscious volition has a chance to make such decisions.

This is a nice article:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2008/04/mind-decision/amp

@karl_lew

(coughs) listening to DN33 twice every week has taught me quite the visualization in the EBTs:

And what is the effort to preserve? It’s when a mendicant preserves a meditation subject that’s a fine foundation of immersion: the perception of a skeleton, a worm-infested corpse, a livid corpse, a split open corpse, or a bloated corpse. This is called the effort to preserve.

But am I correct in understanding that that is something that you’ve seen in the past and now bear in mind, not something that you’ve imagined such as being involved in a fatal car crash or being bitten by a deadly snake?

It’s this imagining things that you don’t know (or cannot recollect) that I am still having a problem with.

[karl_lew]

@stu

It’s this imagining things that you don’t know…

Charnel grounds are not readily available to experience with the senses. Yet the internet has images of corpses. The imagination need not work so hard.

[stu]

I went to a body works exhibition of plastinated bodies once. It was fascinating and knowing that they were real human bodies did offer something slightly more visceral than an episode of CSI. I think I may have desensitised myself through watching too many of horror movies in my youth.

I had a go on a VR system the other day. I was supposedly in a cage underwater beings attacked by sharks. The experience didn’t really bite though Standing on the edge of a VR high building tricked me into thinking it might be real and made me feel a bit wary for a second or two until I collected myself though.

[Nadine]

@karl_lew

Charnel grounds are not readily available to experience with the senses.

They may not be open access, but there are “human body farms” used to research decomposition. YouTube generously provides some time-lapse videos if I’m not mistaken.

Application of cemetery contemplation

[Viveka]

This lovely Tiger snake (highly venemous) kindly chose not to bite me yesterday, though my bare shins were within easy striking range. I literally jumped out of my shoes backwards, and he lay his head back down, signaling no more threat… what a kind snake… mortality is only a short distance away!

[Invo]

I think it is very importaint to make a distincion between:

1. Fear from premature death of physical body (accidents, dangerous animals etc.)
2. Death as a spiritual process of dissolution and letting go of controling aspcet of the mind

Fear of death as a physical phenomenon is quite healthy. Being afraid of venomous snake can save our life. And dying prematurely, while our paths can be still developed in this precious human existence, knowing the dhamma, is not really wholesome. So it is not bad to fear for our life to survive, so we can progress as much as possible and help others on the path in this very life.

But fear of death as a spiritual process seems a hindrance to me.
Fear of death is closesly associated with jhanic experiences, which can give huge insights into anicca and anatta.
Because jhanic experiences can be associated with dissolution of body and then thoughts, while still remaining conscious.
It can be very scary for the ego, because it has to let go of control, probably for the first time in life. This is what scares people in this stuff, fear of letting go control and their attachments.

Of course for most people, both fears are connected.

But for the wise meditator, one would not fear letting go of control, because one knows it is exactly the thing that causes trouble.
Still, a wise meditator would be scared of venomous snake. It could take away his very precious life in a human body.

Spiritual processes touch different aspect of fear, than fear of death from dangerous animal, car accident etc.

I think buddhism is much more concerned with working with fear from letting go of control and ones life, rather than fear for one body.

Of course when one is not scared of dying as a process and let go of attachments, one would less scared of dying.
But one still would be scared of dangerous animal, because it is natural response of the brain, which is also conductive to path of liberation.

Would be a great loss for the world if most skilled monks would die to snakes instead of teaching

I think best practice for death contemplation is actually deep jhana practice connected with standard contemplation of bodily problems, sickness and biological death.

But it is importaint to note that death contemplation as for corpses etc. is aimed more at reducing cravings for the world. It is deep jhana practice that produce fear of death as spiritual process and finally give opportunity to let it go.

Ajahn Brahm speaks a lot about this in his talks. Thanissaro Bhikkhu also had interesting article on fear. Freedom From Fear

PS: Viveka I’m really glad you survived the encounter without scratch

[Viveka]

@Invo

Still, a wise meditator would be scared of venomous snake. It could take away his very precious life in a human body.

@Invo Yes you are right.
I should have been more explicit in my post
There is nothing beneficial about seeking out risk and danger.
I posted mainly to show that unexpected death can occur at any time, and thus to encourage people to practice “like ones hair is on fire”. I often emphasize this as a counter-point to the complacency that death is a long distance away, and the belief that there is no rush to practice.

Ps I am very grateful to that snake, for being kind and tolerant

[Invo]

Yes yes, of course I wasn’t referring to that, all is good
I just shared my own general thoughts on the subject I’m personally much more interested in more profound fear of letting go of entirety of samsara (which is aim of buddhist practice, very closely connected to fear of ultimate “death” I believe), rather than just fear for my biological life.

I think death is a process of losing control of the experience in the mind. So it freaks out the mind like nothing else. It is very “no-self”.

I also contemplate death when in risky situations, exactly like you described. I think it is very importaint to do that, just don’t put ourselves in such situations on purpose, so seems we agree completely

PS: I think we subconsciously know that we are subject to dualistic (pleasurable and painful) kamma, thats why we are so scared of death. It is like part of our minds remembers that if we don’t get this right, it will get messy again. We’ve been through this countless times according to Buddha Dhamma and I think we are as scared of death as much as of life… at least such is the case for me.
Only understanding of Nibbana as neither death, and neither life, soothe my perspective on it and it gives motivation to practice.

I also think that contemplating death shows us how rich we are right now, being here and learning dhamma. Losing that would be the greatest loss.

[karl_lew]

@Viveka

jumped out of my shoes backwards,

Glad you and the snake are both still alive!

…

Having had my own “shocked-out-of-skin” frights, I wonder if you might, by any chance, recall that moment of recognition? I’ve been wondering if my own frights happen when my mind is somewhat away…almost as if the shock is of the mind snapping back into place and reconnecting: an unexpected contact exploding into feeling, perception and intention. Jump!

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

Having recently encountered a snake during walking meditation, I can report that:

1. without the “snap back” (as I was already somewhat mindfully present) the emotional shock was lessened. It wasn’t quite so jarring.
2. But, that said, my reptilian brain still did its job. I lept back and did experience the concomitant spike in adrenaline