Fear, Escapism and the Nature of the Times

The Watercooler
41

Neither do I - but some people seem to think that if they can find a few examples of things found in the Nikayas that cannot possibly be factually correct, then this will strengthen their case that rebirth is also pure myth - an “iron age” fantasy.

It seems like some people are intent on hammering away at these cosmological digressions, and using modern appeals to authority to back more devout Buddhists into a corner where they are forced to choose between a) believing that the Buddha was perfectly enlightened, and b) appearing sane. I could be way off, but that is what it feels like at times.

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42

Well, I think a more charitable interpretation is to argue that there are ways of understanding the Buddha’s own enlightenment that don’t involve viewing him as a god-like, omniscient being with spectacular super-normal powers and cognitive abilities.

Perhaps the fact that the Buddha achieved the cessation of greed, hatred and delusion, the unraveling of I-making and my-making, and maybe the attainment of the Deathless would be enough?

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But what is the deathless? Where is the materialistic/scientific proof that there is any such thing? (playing devil’s advocate now)

44

Yes, that’s good point, but at least it is easier to understand in rough conception how the path could lead to it.

Many of the world’s contemplative traditions - Jewish, Christian, neo-Platonic, Sufi and Indian, at least - have held that deep inner examination and gradual detachment from the external world ultimately end up uncovering the “peak” of the soul that lies at the root of conscious experience, and which is, intrinsically or in itself, uninvolved in temporal passage, or the cognition of the changing corporeal things that come into being and pass away, and are inferior and painful. Experiences roughly like this seem to match up somewhat with Plotinus’s “One”, Eckhart’s “Godhead” and Ruysbroeck’s “sparkling stone.” And the description of the jhanas followed by the arupa attainments seems to point toward some state or reality broadly similar.

Since achieving this state involves a stilling, pacification and “emptying” of the mind, rather than a filling up of the mind, which is why it is often described apophatically, it is at least easier to understand how the gradual “letting go” or “release” of mind objects and formations would end up in some such place. On the other hand, understanding how all this letting go and emptying ends up with a person acquiring all sorts of positive powers - being able to fly, to see other worlds and planets, to read minds, to delve into the past, to sink into the earth, etc. - seems much less clear, and even antithetical to the direction in which release leads.

Since the Buddha himself warned people away from the desire to make acquisitions and indulge their will to power, I prefer to think that the attribution of these great powers to the Buddha in the suttas resulted from the imaginings of awestruck and devoted - but confused and unenlightened - followers, who knew the Buddhas was purported to have achieved something great, but could not understand any kind of spiritual greatness different from that attributed to the powerful magi, or siddhas, or divinities, or whatever, of the world’s magical traditions.

So when the Buddha tells stories about the delusions and sensual indulgences and vainglory of Great Brahma or Sakka, for example, I think he was trying to tell people that the nibbana he had attained was a better and more perfect state than even the most highly sought worldly goods, powers and pleasures, maximized to the highest degree as they were imagined to be among the gods. Unfortunately, people sometimes took the wrong lesson and assumed he was saying that he, himself, was actually more powerful than the gods, in the traditional worldly sense.

All the Buddha promises is a path to the end of suffering. If all of this business about the dhamma eye and other super-normal powers is of the slightest importance, why did not the Buddha encapsulate his teaching by saying, “I teach the reality of powerlessness, the causes of powerlessness, the existence of the Super-Powerful, and the path leading to the existence of the Super-Powerful.”

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45

Hi daverupa

Thank you for your questions. :slight_smile:

As far as the specific example about unclean water goes, yes, you’re right, I was supportive of alternatives being presented, but no one being forced to follow any particular practice. Forced being the operative word in this case. But that’s just me :slight_smile: You’re of course most welcome to think differently. :slight_smile:

But in the section you’ve quoted…

Simply standing by as parents kills their children out of ignorance, no matter how well-intentioned their actions might be, is not loving them it seems to me.

… I was answering the question as it was posed/worded by dkervick and answering in a more general sense. Perhaps I should have been clearer about this.

So I’ve quoted you out of context here as I wanted to just address this in a general sense first. For me, it’s hard to answer this kind of question absolutely. I would need to know more about the context. However, considering the following, that you’ve supplied…

…I would tend towards being supportive of almost any means by which such actions were made to cease completely, or at least lessened.

These are very gross, coarse examples; harm is being done on very physical levels, but such harm that the mental and emotional levels are probably going to be severely damaged.

Thanks again. I hope this helps. :white_flower:

With metta

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46

Well, he did, except he did it exactly the other way around.

The iddhis are part of the Path and can be attained by anyone willing to put in the effort. The Buddha just placed Nibbana above such attainments. And the picture of him that we get from the suttas is not one of excessive modesty. Even with meditative attainments, sometimes he would use his own accomplishments to lower a listener’s conceit, like the interaction with Pukkusa in DN 16 :

What do you think, Pukkusa? Which is more difficult to do, more difficult to master: one who, being conscious & awake when 500 carts passed by right near, would neither see them nor hear a sound; or one who, being conscious & awake when the rain-god was raining, the rain-god was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt splits (the air), would neither see them nor hear a sound?

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47

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

No one else seems to use the phrase, so I thought maybe I’d address this. Iron Age India = descriptive, not judgmental, when I use it. It’s not an insult, and oughtn’t to be used as such.

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Hmm … well, why put in that effort, since the accumulation of worldly powers, attainments and acquisitions seems to lead in a direction opposite to the path - which moves toward relinquishment.

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The iddhis are classified as supramundane and are explicitly mentioned by the Buddha as fruits of the Path in DN 2 - they are not in opposition to the Dhamma or the Path.

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50

Possibly these powers were mentioned by the Buddha - or possibly they were just mentioned by whatever chain of individuals claimed to have heard the account of the audience between the Buddha and King Ajatasattu that is recorded in DN.

In many of the suttas, once the hindrances have been overcome, and concentration has been developed so that progress through the four jhanas occurs, then nibbana is attained. And that’s it - that’s the end of the path.

Since the one who has attained nibbana is totally quenched, and free from all craving, it is unclear to me why such an individual would then have any interest in practicing clairvoyance and clairaudience, or skipping mentally through worlds and times, or projecting mind-made bodies or engaging in any of that other power-tripping magical lore.

It seems to me that what we have here is a stage in the process by which the world-renouncing teachings of the sage and wanderer Gotama were gradually fused with the other magical lore of India, in order to bestow upon the Buddha the spectacular worldly powers that were felt to be befitting of a true Indian Holy Man or magus. This is the trend which moved in the direction of such developments as Shaivism and Tantra, and ultimately resulted in the near complete disappearance of Buddhism from India.

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51

The questions I asked go to how Buddhists (or you as a Buddhist) perceive of their situation in this life. They are very much relevant to how the EBT’s are interpreted and applied.
Further the questions did not ask about your assessment except on one dimension that seems very relevant – is this something that you perceive is happening now or something that you are concerned may happen? In particular is there a trend that is increasing? I hope the readers needs no further explanation as to how this question has salience to personal practice, quenching cravings as well as to perceptions of so-called political events.

Revealing, IMO, that you would justify declining my request with that.

I’m thinking I’ve clarified your thinking therefor on several levels.
There is a lesson here about being mindful of what one says … if only “in passing”.
Furthermore, there is often significance in what is said “in passing” – otherwise why say it? (:wink: Any passages in the EBTs, even if said only in passing, about things “said in passing”?)

My opinion agrees with you – at least as to things that I too judge to be “more esoteric doctrinal matters”. Not everyone perceives them as being too esoteric.

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Some of the powers can lead to more complete understanding of the mind and the mind of others to enable better teaching of others.

Not everything should be looked at through the lens of selfishness. I surmise that an excess of this tendency among some of the early Buddhists played a major role in leading to the development of the Mahayana.

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If you have already achieved nibbana, why do you need a more complete understanding of the mind? Isn’t that just an expression of idle intellectual greed rather than a movement toward liberation - given that the person is already liberated?

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Nibbana is the cessation of dukkha, brought about by the cessation of craving. It’s not a complete understanding of the mind.

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55

Yes, my argument is that once one has achieved nibbana, all cravings cease - including the craving to enhance one’s understanding of the mind. Also, the utility of improving one’s understanding of the mind disappears once one has achieved liberation, since there is nothing worthwhile left to accomplish for which one needs that knowledge.

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OK. We clearly have very different conceptions of what Nibbana entails, which is not surprising given we have very different conceptions of the Buddha and what he taught.

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Well, I’m not sure what it reveals, but I think many people look to Buddhism for refuge from the world of social and political strife, and so I try to keep most of my politics and political interests off this site.

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@DKervick

IMO a good reply to my question might have been:

" I think many people look to Buddhism for refuge from the world of social and political strife, and so I try to keep most of my politics and political interests off this site. But in this case I failed. I regret that and regret therefor that I will decline to answer your questions."

Now the questions I asked seems relevant for several reasons.

  1. What you wrote about your impressions of current events that could plausibly be interpreted as following a pattern of thinking that is discussed in the EBTs. But I had real doubts so I did what I believed is the wise thing to do: I asked first rather than assumed.
  2. I had a hunch that the frame of mind implied by your characterization of events might be related to your ultimate question.
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Yes I regret I ever brought such subjects up.

60

Is there an EBT source for that? I’m not sure about the X-ray vision you might be mixing him up with superman? Although, he could know anything he turned his attention to?

Regarding the Naga-serpents and other exotic species, I thought it says in the EBT’s that for the Buddha, they were ‘apparent’ in his immediate environment - and elsewhere?

I heard that some ‘Shamans’ can shape-shift into ‘serpents’ - and other species. I heard, from a reputable source, that ‘Ajahn Chah’ put his foot on one (a shaman-snake) when he was looking at some land which was to become his monastery. The shaman - back in his human-form - adviced people to support ‘Ajahn Chah’ as he was a very powerful monk.

I wonder if Buddha’s arise in the Andromeda galaxy. There may be EBT support for this possibility? It is said the Buddha would visit heavenly realms. A teacher of God’s and human beings!

I am not saying any of this is true but I am aware of what I know and don’t know. I am not in the habit of arguing that I understand the truth or falsity of things that are beyond my understanding. That would make no sense at all! Do you know better?

It’s interesting, the concern about ‘pseudo science’. The devotees of ‘scientism’ often conflate their dogmatic anti-supernatural beliefs with science. I would call this: pseudo science! Science is not about dogmatic nonsense posing as true understanding and insight.

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