Feelings/Vedana = pre-conscious? How determined pleasant/unpleasant/neutral?

Q & A
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1

In the Theravada view of the process of perception etc. - there is first rupa (form/object and sense contact, phassa ), which leads to vedana (feeling, either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral), this all seems very automatic and unconscious. then from the feeling, the mind creates craving or aversion towards that perceived object, etc.

I struggle to understand how the feelings/vedana and esp. its distinctions into pleasant/unpleasant/neutral come to pass, if this is kindof before the conscious mind perception.

You know what I mean?

how is decided whether I crave this / attach to this sense impression and feeling, or not?

Through the strength of my mindfulness?

My conditionings? My past thoughts and action? My volition (Sankhara)?

2

Thanks for participating in the forum and bringing this subject up! There are others who are better able to explain this, but I offer my simple thoughts.

Vedana is one of the five aggregates. For a regular person who doesn’t know or understand the dhamma, these aggregates of grasping happen automatically and are taken as an aspect of a permanent self. These aggregates are conditioned and form deep bonds to consciousness and a strong sense of self.

When rupa arises with them via the six senses, a very primitive feeling naturally arises. It can be a feeling that is pleasant or agreeable, unpleasant or disagreeable or rather neutral or neither pleasant or unpleasant. It’s the how something is.

From that feeling there is a perception that arises, a very basic recollection of what that rupa is.

This triggers a flood of proliferations about what they think of it, what they like, dislike, fear, crave and how they make willful decisions to respond to it.

All of this is grasped by consciousness and integrated as a permanent self, I me and mine.

This process is based on past experience, an ongoing process of conditioning and habituation that has been going on for countless lifetimes as results of craving and kamma.

Fortunately, you’re hearing the Dhamma and you are now discovering the way out! By learning from the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Noble Sangha, you have an opportunity to learn to recognize in the moment what’s happening with the aggregates, what they are and how you’re clinging to them. You can then change the causes and conditions for how you react or respond to these and make decisions with regard to all of it and begin to release your grasping.

I hope that helps.

3

As far as I currently understand it, for example for sights suttas present the following: eye + sights + eye viññāáč‡a → contact to be experienced as pleasant, painful, neutral → feeling.

Suppose, two people saw the same sight yet one considered it pleasant, the other otherwise, then the main reason for this would be in eye viññāáč‡a, but what is it? Currently I think a good translation is eye distinguishing knowledge. As to why I think it is viññāáč‡a that contributes to distinguishing how a contact is to be experienced, it is because of the definition in MN43 that says so:

They speak of ‘Viññāáč‡a’ .
How is Viññāáč‡a defined?
It’s called Viññāáč‡a because it vijānāti.
And what does it vijānāti?
Sukhantipi vijānāti, dukkhantipi vijānāti, adukkhamasukhantipi vijānāti.
‘this is pleasant’ vijānāti, ‘this is painful’ vijānāti ‘this is neutral’ vijānāti
It’s called Viññāáč‡a because it vijānāti.”

As an example of acquiring viññāáč‡a or what we call conditioning there is the example of Pavlov’s dog experiment with a bell - a dog is given meal and a bell is rang, after a while ringing the bell would make the dog expect a meal and begin salivating as it would associate the sound as pleasant. It has acquired distinguishing knowledge that the bell sound is pleasant.

Another is an example of MMORPG games. After playing for a while, a player might make the choice to consider seeing rare drops from bosses as pleasant. Then, if they see rare drop, there is eye contact + sight + viññāáč‡a and corresponding feeling. This reaction to sights is clearly learned.

Does MN38 MN145 speak about this?

there are sights known by the eye, which are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
If a mendicant delights, welcomes, and keeps clinging to them, this gives rise to relishing. Relishing is the origin of suffering, I say. There are sounds known by the ear 


MN38 is a bit more detailed:

When they see a sight with their eyes, if it’s pleasant they desire it, but if it’s unpleasant they dislike it. They live with mindfulness of the body unestablished and limited heart.
And they don’t truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Being so full of favoring and opposing, when they experience any kind of feeling—pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral—they delights, welcome, and keep clinging to it. This gives rise to relishing. Relishing feelings is grasping.

There are 3 actions mentioned here that one can take in relation to experiencing feelings: delights, welcomes, and keeps clinging to → gives rise to relishing. It’s also good to check the Pali words for key phrases to get clearer on the meaning.

4

I assume you meant “preconscious” or “subconscious”? Unconscious means “knocked out”

5

In MN 28, Sariputta explains the way one can engage or not engage with form, feelings, etc. when they come into range. “Giving up and getting rid of desire and greed for these five grasping aggregates is the cessation of suffering.”

Reverends, though the interior eye is intact, so long as exterior sights don’t come into range and there’s no corresponding engagement, there’s no manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness. Though the interior eye is intact and exterior sights come into range, so long as there’s no corresponding engagement, there’s no manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when the interior eye is intact and exterior sights come into range and there is corresponding engagement, there is the manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness.
The form produced in this way is included in the grasping aggregate of form. The feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness produced in this way are each included in the corresponding grasping aggregate.
They understand: ‘So this is how there comes to be inclusion, gathering together, and assimilation into these five grasping aggregates. But the Buddha has said: “One who sees dependent origination sees the teaching. One who sees the teaching sees dependent origination.” And these five grasping aggregates are indeed dependently originated. The desire, clinging, attraction, and attachment for these five grasping aggregates is the origin of suffering. Giving up and getting rid of desire and greed for these five grasping aggregates is the cessation of suffering.’ At this point, much has been done by that mendicant.

6

I always struggled to understand: if feelings arise preconscious and automatic from sense contact, how and through which process is decided whether I then get a pleasant/unpleasant or neutral feeling


Previous conditions? Latent tendencies (anusaya)? Sankharas? Fermentations (asava)?

but I suppose the processes (contact, feeling, perception, craving/aversion) are not completely separate and somehow intertwined and mutually conditioned, no?

7

I found these thoughts quite helpful and inspiring:

In MN43 it is said:

“This feeling and this perception and this consciousness, friend, these dhammas are conjoined not disjoined, and it is impossible to separate each from each in order to describe the difference between them; for what one feels, that one cognizes. That is why these dhammas are conjoined, and not disjoined, and why it is impossible to separate each from each in order to describe the difference between them.”

(Translation by Ajahn Sujato)

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The sense experience causes feeling (vedana) which in turn causes perception (sanna).

Perception is the mental factor that makes sense of the feeling experienced and may identify it as pleasurable, aversive or neutral.

(From: Conceptual Proliferation (papancha) in Theravada Buddhism by Dr. Ari Ubeysekara) — Conceptual Proliferation (Papancha) in Theravada Buddhism – drarisworld

8

Also:

The latent tendencies [anusaya] of lust, aversion and ignorance play a significant role in identifying and interpreting the sensory experiences received through one of the six sense doors. When feeling (vedana) arises following a sense impression (phassa), the latent tendency of lust will interpret it as a pleasant feeling, while the latent tendency of aversion will interpret it as an unpleasant or aversive feeling. The latent tendency of ignorance will interpret it as a neutral feeling.

Bhikkhu Katukurunde Nanananda has divided the sequence of events in a sense experience as presented in the Madhupindika sutta into three different phases.

  1. Phase one: An impersonal contingent phase based on Dependent Arising (paticcasamuppada) from sense door, sense object, sense consciousness, sense impression up to and including feeling (vedana)

  2. Phase two: A personal, deliberate activity from perception (sanna), thinking (vitakka) to proliferation (papancha)

  3. Phase three: A neither contingent nor personal phase of further proliferation involving sensory experiences of the past, present and future conceptualised around one’s self. Here, the person becomes the victim of his own perceptions and thought constructions

See: Bhikkhu K. Nanananda (1971): > Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought.

From: Conceptual Proliferation (papancha) in Theravada Buddhism by Dr. Ari Ubeysekara Conceptual Proliferation (Papancha) in Theravada Buddhism – drarisworld