Finding my tradition

The Watercooler
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Hello everyone, im quite new to this discussies forum so pardon me if I make any mistakes.

I up to recently (well I suppose I still am) was a Mahayana practicioner. Ever since I learned about buddhism I always leaned more towards the Mahayana side but actually stood more close with the Pali sutras. The people around me mostly referenced those to me as a newbie.

Now im recently trying to expand my views and letting go of what is adopted but using actual reasoning to support what I practice. After reading some books and doing researches, I have come to a conclusion that I actually have more faith in the Pali canon. This has sparked into me a kind of existentialism where I kinda doubted the whole picture of buddhism as a whole. I have invested in mahayana books and kind of want to sell those and get the 2 last nikayas im missing on my collection instead and fully focus on that.

Yet I seem to be an internal fight over fully letting go the mahayana texts (and to clarify mainly the shastras written by supposedly great masters such as nagarjunaz shantideva,atisha…etc.)

I dont really know what to do or how to proceed. Im curious towards your opinion, should I leave the mahayana books and invest in pali material and therefore also fully commit to it? Or is it foolish for me to make such a radical turn in my life. Its the amount of options/traditions existing and different practices and people claiming theirs is the truth, thats ripping my head apart. Figuratively ofcourse, although my hands sometimes are in my hair because of the doubt and uncertainty.

Anyhow im looking forward to your responses. Perhaps im looking forward to someone telling me what to do and what is the actual truth.

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I understand your struggle! Just know you don’t need to come to some rigid rule for yourself. There is wisdom in both traditions. The Mahayana is not anti-buddhism, nor is it completely opposed to the Pali canon. Much of it relies on the Agamas, and a lot of the discourses in the Agamas are the same as in the Pali Canon.

Also, you don’t need to simply believe something because it is part of a tradition. You can continue to study and investigate, practice in various places, form a more educated opinion. I can assure you not everyone who practices in the Theravada tradition understands the Pali canon in the same way, and not everyone in the Mahayanas believes the same things. The dharma is to be practiced and verified through direct experience.

There have been well-respected Theravadin ajahns who loved Nagarjuna and taught from his writings. Ajahn Dun taught the Zen notion of “mind itself is Buddha”.. Ajahn Brahm sometimes refused to “take a rigid side” and said his way was not Mahayana, nor Hinayana, but Hahayana..

Rigidity is not the way, so approach this struggle with an open mind and heart. The sooner you release it, the sooner you’ll be able to clarify things for yourself!

One of my favorite teachings from the Buddha is precisely about this. He says: " One uninvolved has nothing embraced or rejected, has sloughed off every view right here - every one.

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Good questions!

And I think this speaks to the other recent thread about why there’s no Early Buddhism Society. I think the teachings of early Buddhism are already within all the traditions. They act to revitalize and regenerate, as a call to wisdom and authenticity. I’m not enthusiastic about setting up a whole new “early Buddhism” movement, or getting all puritanical about it.

Story time!

Yesterday I had a chat with some folks who work at the local Jesuit Refugee Service. (They’re not Jesuits or even Christians!). They were telling me some stories about their work.

One time, one of them dealt with a mother from an African Muslim heritage. She found out the mother was planning to send her nine (9!) daughters back home to undergo genital mutilation. When she protested, the mother said, “But we have to, it’s our religion.” She asked, “What do you mean, our religion?” The mother said, “It’s in the Quran.” She said, “But it isn’t in the Quran.” The mother didn’t believe her, “But our teachers tell us it’s in the Quran.”

She persuaded the mother to not go ahead with anything until they’d read the Quran together. Mind you, they didn’t share a language, so this was all via an interpreter. For a month they met, and read through the entire Quran passage by passage.

When they reached the end, the mother burst out in tears and hugged her, saying, “Oh thank you so much! We hate it, I hate it, my daughters, my husband all hate it, but we thought we had to do it. Now I know, it’s not in the Quran.”

The same kind of thing happens in Buddhism all the time. Women suffering domestic violence are told, “It’s your kamma, you have to deal with it. Just have metta for your abuser.”

Studying suttas is not just about historical research or even finding the correct way to meditate. It’s about finding a humane and reasonable spiritual path. We have too many schools and traditions, and sometimes we forget that traditions exist to serve human beings.

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Thank you venerable that was quite an inspiring story and it holds truth!

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Im glad im not the only one with this struggle, I appreciate the words of wisdom, but if I may how do you go about practicing without a firm standpoint? Im afraid I’ll be on the wrong side of the “team.” if I commit to one, then I’ll miss out on the other, to state it plainly.

All the bickering back and forth doesn’t really do the situation justice. But I must say im fairly surprised at how open everyone is, in my head or atleast how these matters are discussed in theoreric matter it’s like theravadins and Mahayaninst are at each other’s throats.

To summarize what im asking is, if you keep exploring but stay open to both where would that put me as a buddhist? Would the buddha be pleased with how I spend my life practicing. Im just haunted by those possibilities and perhaps wasting my life. It feels like the buddha left some grey area that ultimately causes these doctrine splits

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Keep the Mahayana books and save up to buy the Nikayas. And/or just read the Nikayas for free on Sutta Central.

It’s natural for there to be some friction if you’re now finding yourself more aligned with the EBT framework after being seeped in a Mahayana framework. It’ll take some time for causes and conditions rearrange themselves. Your mind will settle down.

Doubt doesn’t go away until stream-entry. So even if you “pick a side”, that doubt will just find new things to feed on. But it can be weakened with practice. Again: time, patience, putting in effort.

If it helps in this transition period, focus on what is shared between the traditions, e.g. the three characteristics, faith in the Buddha, generosity, kindness, goodwill, compassion, etc. There is a lot to work with without having to pick things that are exclusive to one tradition or the other.

At the end of the day, Theravada/EBT vs. Mahayana or one tradition vs. another or one teacher vs. another is a mental formation, a perception the mind has created based upon its sense-contacts, feelings and perceptions arising from those, and craving weaving everything together into views that we cling to. We create things in our minds and set them in opposition to each other and cling and suffer and all the rest. The whole affair is impermanent, conditioned, unsatisfactory, and not-self. Those are just words though, another mental formation, another set of views. We practice this Buddhist path to understand these things as they really are and become free—paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī. Again: time, patience, putting in effort.

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The sincerity of your questions shines through your posts. :folded_hands:
If you give it time, and choose a form that appeals to you now, it can help to know that you’re still free in the future to change direction if you wish. Or, you may always feel at home.

In the meantime, you may wish to practice beautiful and beneficial Dhamma practices common to all traditions of Buddhism:

  • Cultivating and practicing Metta and compassion
  • Cultivating equanimity and patience
  • Investigating impermanence and kamma
  • Contemplating and practicing the 5 Precepts

While the “techniques” may vary, these are aspects of Buddhist practice common to all traditions. You can’t lose! :grinning_face:

Deepening and embodying these virtues and beneficial qualities are foundational to the Dhamma and practicing them you can never “waste my life.”
Things will unfold as they do…

All best wishes and enjoyment in your Practice!

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I see you said Atisha there.

Atisha said: there are four types of people in this world. First, the people of worldly capacity. They only think about this life, about material acquisition, and they don’t practice the Dharma.

Second, the people of small capacity. They learn the Dharma and think about future lives. They learn and practice about correct conduct based on karma. To ensure they have good rebirth.

Third, the people of medium capacity. Those who after contemplating further, see that even future rebirths are not secure. Why not leave this ocean of suffering permanently. They aim to achieve complete liberation and stop rebirths.

Fourth, the people of great capacity. Understanding that other beings are also in suffering, one have pity and compassion towards them. One then think, “in the past since beginningless time, they are my mothers, my fathers, my closest person. It’s not right that I abandon them and go to safety alone. What if I learn more, achieve more, so that I have power to help them too?”

When such thought arise spontaneously, effortlessly, and constantly without interruption, and because of that one person then take a deliberate vow “I will achieve highest enlightenment as Buddha to help sentient beings”; this person is called a bodhisattva henceforth, and he is now in Mahayana path.

====

and how to train to get to the great capacity? Atisha said, well, train first in small and medium capacity.

And what is small and medium capacity? As previous posters said, the Dharma common across all Buddhist tradition. The Dharma we found mostly in pali sutta.

So in Mahayana point of view, one should read more basic books (pali sutta) before attempting advanced books (Mahayana sutras and shastra).

(Apologize if I use the term that seems offensive to Theravada and the like. small, medium, basic - that’s what the author used as words and the Mahayana worldview in general.)

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I think sometimes for converts (don’t know if that is you @Gaja) our books serve as a kind of totem. So their physical presence takes on more meaning than just books sitting on a shelf.

Unless you need to raise money or make shelf space, they can just sit there. As you study more of the Pali suttas you may begin to look at your original collection differently. Perhaps they just become a focus of gratitude for the help they have given you on your path. Or maybe eventually you feel nothing towards them at all. Who knows.

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It comes to my mind these 2 suttas that might inspire you in this kind of situation: MN56 and AN8.12

This person has come knocking at the door after eons of wandering, may this person quench the thirst very soon! Come near and listen!

With metta,

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Hi, again! I think you got some pretty nice responses already that say what I would say.

I wouldn’t say it’s practice without a firm standpoint. As bhante Sujato already said, the teachings of the Buddha are present in all traditions. The precepts are the same in most traditions, the virtues to be developed are the same, and we definitely practice with the same noble truths and the same eightfold path. The methods may vary, but they did so in the Buddha’s time too. Most of what can get confusing is doctrine. But, if you look at recent discussions on this forum, you’ll also see things that can be very confusing. How can two Theravadin monks discuss a topic such as Nibbana and have different understanding? How can one monk allude to something like an eternal blissful existence after extinguishment, while another disagrees, if they both folow the Pali canon? But, that’s the reality of doctrine, words and views..

Be on the Buddha team, if you want to pick a side! :grin:

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Personally, I’ve changed my mind on many things and many traditions several times during my Dharmic journey. I’ve zig-zaged back and forth books, teachers, schools.

Many things I’ve put down in shock, later came around to be seen in a different light. Things I valued greatly, I’ve begun to let go. If we’re honest on our journey, I think it’s inevitable that our journey should take such sharp turns every now and then.

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Thank you all for the heart warming advice and courage, perhaps im thinking too black and white in my head and will surely check out all the refrences and apply the advices given!

Namo buddhaya!

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Personally, I have shied away from identifying with, staying within or grasping traditions. When I first encountered Buddhism, I was captivated and overjoyed. But as questions arose in me and the answers from the “tradition” I was learning from weren’t satisfactory, I looked elsewhere.

I used to rely on books about Buddhism, to help me understand. A few author/teachers seemed to be the pinnacle of wisdom until I learned and experienced more. Everywhere in Buddhism there is commentary. Some commentary is helpful, some is not. Some has stood the tests of time and of experience, some has not. The same goes with teachers. It’s super easy and safe to mine from the same quarry, but I don’t find the other gems and precious minerals.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s for me to begin with the suttas. Not just a select puddle, but the entire pool. Reading the suttas takes time and questions arise. It takes patience to let the answers come. Sometimes they come when I least expect and from somewhere I wouldn’t have guessed. Those are the ones that really stick with me.

Does an idea or teaching hold up to the Buddha’s teaching as a whole? Does this idea serve to propel me on the path to ultimately understand the Four Noble Truths? Does it foster the entirety of the 37 Wings to Awakening? Does it open up the Dhamma or close it around a person or a tradition rather than the Buddha of the suttas? Does it change me for the better?

I’ve learned to trust teachers who have proven to reflect best the main themes across the suttas and point me towards how to live and practice in the way of the Buddha. But it’s funny how I still find things that each one of those teachers say that I don’t totally agree with. That challenges me to test my own views to see if it’s the teacher or me. It even might just be ideas that don’t take away from the Buddha’s handful of leaves and they don’t alienate me or cause me to fixate on recurring themes.

Just my 2 cents for the conversation!

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How are you with seated meditation?

That’s been the lab and the litmus, for me. I bought the first four Nikayas in the 1980’s, even though my practice was always at Zen centers, and what I’ve found is that I need all of it and all the medical research I can find on PubMed besides.

Good luck! :slight_smile:

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Dear Gaia: a great and thoughtful question, but I thought I would give my two baht on these kinds of questions.

After a lot of trial and tribulation the historical Buddha got it right. He rejected the prevailing wisdom of his time and ritual practices and through the process of absorptive Jhana he gained insight into a path of practice that is to this day a measure of perfection. I sometimes like a what the Buddha provided the world with something akin to Einstein’s meditations that produced special relativity and general relativity and other insights as to how the universe works. To this day, even in modern and advanced physics great scientist still point to Einstein‘s insights, even though, as is expected with physics and science in general overtime, these theories will be modified or even new theories will be developed that gain greater insight into how our universe works.

To me what happened with the spread of the Dhamma into China and Japan, and other countries was a kind of rejection and even corruption of this brilliant philosophy and science of human life that the Buddha elucidated. I do think that having an ecumenical spirit is a positive thing but to use a worn out cliché, in many ways we’ve thrown out the baby with the bathwater as Buddhism migrated through time and space to the present circumstances of so-called western Buddhism.

It’s still sticks in my craw, and I frankly don’t remember who said it, but I believe it was an early Chinese or Japanese guru who stated that he wiped his rear end with the ancient Suttas. This statement spoke volumes regarding the attitudes of Buddhism in the Middle Ages, and certainly in modern times, where we have seen Buddhism represent very little of what the historical Buddha actually recommended and promoted as part of a healthy and ethical life leading to the Jhanas and insight.

This is one reason I’m such a massive fan of Sutta Central. Like the Ashokan pillars we have a very visible and strong resource that both honors the historical Buddha and makes a significant and important effort to preserve and promote his actual teachings. Kind of like the real medicine for a very sick world. We no longer need to struggle through 5 kg sized books or listen to hours and hours of YouTube videos from various knuckleheads attempting to tell us what modern Buddhism represents. We now have not just an amazing and elegant resource in different languages that contains the teachings of the Buddha, but we also have a community of people who are all along a spectrum of understanding and scholarship that makes the experience of absorbing oneself into the Buddhist teachings so rewarding and enjoyable.

To me, we can suggest that later Mahayana teachings still embrace, proper Buddhism, but to a greater degree it’s like comparing a cup of cold natural springwater to a glass of Coca-Cola. To a thirsty person, both might provide some immediate quenching of thirst, but overtime one will cultivate brightness and health, and the other with its additive corn syrup, artificial coloring, and artificial flavoring will inevitably damage our health. One of Coke’s famous statements is that “it’s the real thing“. But, we all know that it’s not the real thing. It’s really a kind of poison that if we consume it overtime, our health and longevity will dramatically suffer.

And so my view has always been to go back to the source. Go back to the fountainhead of wisdom and try to understand and practice as best as possible this amazing gift to humanity that was given to us 2500 years ago.

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Most of the Chinese and Japanese (and I’ll throw in Tantric Tibetan) Buddhism as Mahāyāna is still by and large Indian Buddhism, relying on Indian texts and traditions, as pretty much all Mahāyāna Sūtras were composed in Indian languages.

Except for the localisation of certain concepts and pantheon of gods mostly preserved in Pāli traditions, there’s little that the local traditions have influenced Buddhism.

In fact, most of the local Japanese Kamis in Shintoism are in fact Indian originated. Most of the Daoist literature and monasticism bears Buddhistic influences.

So right away, one can see that sentences such as above doesn’t reflect a proper study of how the Buddhism was transmitted to these parts. :slight_smile:

I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Ch’an or Zen Buddhism, which is the local pronunciation of “Jhana”. Hence, some of the biggest forms of Buddhism in these parts have Jhana as their name, and unsurprisingly, their practices are based mostly on meditation! . :slight_smile:

Mahāyāna introduces a different hermeneutics, which makes it’s interpretation rather challenging compared to a standard Nikayas study.

This being said, whenever someone paints Mahāyāna as a single monoblock, it’s often a tell that they don’t know of the diversity and the conflict of views, just like they don’t know the diversity and conflict of views of Theravadin Buddhisms.

Even Theravadin / EBT masters debate on the very nature of Nirvana in complete opposite directions. And one can find similar discussions in Mahāyāna precisely.

2500 years removed from the Buddha, we all are practicing largely based in faith, whether we like to admit it or not.

MN 95 would be a good example for any EBT student on how to express faith based knowledge:

“If a person has faith, they preserve truth by saying, ‘Such is my faith.’ But they don’t yet come to the categorical conclusion: ‘This is the only truth, anything else is futile.’ If a person has a belief … or has received an oral transmission … or has a reasoned reflection about something … or has accepted a view after contemplation, they preserve truth by saying, ‘Such is the view I have accepted after contemplation.’ But they don’t yet come to the categorical conclusion: ‘This is the only truth, anything else is futile.’ That’s how the preservation of truth is defined, Bhāradvāja. I describe the preservation of truth as defined in this way. But this is not yet the awakening to the truth.”

Of course, everyone is free to their respectful opinions and disagreements. History of Buddhism, in a way, is history of debate.

I’d like to think we can handle these disagreements and debates respectfully, without having to disparage and insult honest practitioners and traditions. :wink:

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That’s maybe the wrong conclusion to draw, friend. The Suttas are mere words, which can be accurate, altered, or corrupted, but which, ultimately, point to something else. What happened, in the time of the probably mythical Bodhidharma, was that the Chinese had a hard time not being stuck in the words, and getting what the words were about. So, the actual need was to learn the dharma through direct action, direct practice of it. That direct practice needs no words. A good teacher, who has deep understanding of the dhamma can teach it to anyone in a way that they can understand, and that doesn’t always require pulling out Suttas, or knowing the exact Pali or Sansrkit word for something. The dhamma invites one to come see for oneself, so if someone verifies the dhamma through practice, they can also speak about it from experience.

Sometimes, people need strong words to snap out of foolishness. So, controversial and outrageous things like “if you meet the Buddha kille the Buddha” were said, precisely because it triggers something in those whose minds can’t go past the simple words. It’s kind of the same as when Nagarjuna decided to outrage the Abhidarma folks by saying there is no difference between samsara and nibbana.

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Doubt and uncertanty will follow you until you start getting your own realizations and insights. These come from practicing the Noble Eightfold Path. In my case, I am getting good results from the practice of mettā.

This little but powerful practice has taught me that Buddhas Teachings are very practical. They shouldn’t be studied in isolation from some spiritual practice of meditation. You practice meditation with dedication for some time and then check the suttas to see how much they resonate with your experience.

I fully reccomend that you start searching for spiritual experiences of meditation. My best reccomendation is the mettā practice in the form of mantra chanting. Sabbe sattā bhavantu sukhitattā is a good mantra for sending good wishes to all beings. It is actually a key verse from Karaniya Metta Suttā, a suttā on loving kindness.

Buddha enumarates eleven wonderful benefits of practicing mettā with dedication. They are:

“Mendicants, you can expect eleven benefits when the heart’s release by love has been cultivated, developed, and practiced, made a vehicle and a basis, kept up, consolidated, and properly implemented.

What eleven?You sleep at ease. You wake happily. You don’t have bad dreams. Humans love you. Non-humans love you. Deities protect you. You can’t be harmed by fire, poison, or blade. Your mind quickly enters immersion. Your face is clear and bright. You don’t feel lost when you die. If you don’t penetrate any higher, you’ll be reborn in a realm of divinity.You can expect eleven benefits when the heart’s release by love has been cultivated, developed, and practiced, made a vehicle and a basis, kept up, consolidated, and properly implemented.” – Mettāsutta (An 11.15)

These are the real benefits that you can experience in your life.

By treating the Buddhas Teachings like an academic study, you deprive them from their real potency. Mere philosophical study wont give you the truth. Mental platform of words and symbols is very unstable and always full of doubts and uncertanty. Real stability and certanty come from a different consciousness – one that has gained adequate spiritual experience and has gone through a transformation of, for example, mettā-sādhana.

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I’m not a scholar, or monk, or teacher or anything like that, but I have been studying and practicing for some years now. I have found that a dedicated daily practice, knowledge and practice of the refuges and lay precepts, and a sincere and careful examination of the Noble Truths and Eightfold Path through the lens of the Brahma Viharas and Dependant Arising can be a beneficial practice and can be engaged with through various traditions.

As was previously stated, doubt is part of it. Notice doubt, then, depending on conditions, respond appropriately. It’s just a hindrance, no big deal. :blush:

Importantly:

practice, study, AND, look and see for yourself. :heart:

Good luck!

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