Good points, thanks.
The unconvincing problem with this is it assumes Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad existed during the Buddha’s lifetime, which would only be supported by non-Sutta opinions. I read in SN 12.61:
This body made up of the four primary elements is seen to last for a year, or for two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, or a hundred years, or even longer.
Dissatāyaṁ, bhikkhave, cātumahābhūtiko kāyo ekampi vassaṁ tiṭṭhamāno dvepi vassāni tiṭṭhamāno tīṇipi vassāni tiṭṭhamāno cattāripi vassāni tiṭṭhamāno pañcapi vassāni tiṭṭhamāno dasapi vassāni tiṭṭhamāno vīsatipi vassāni tiṭṭhamāno tiṁsampi vassāni tiṭṭhamāno cattārīsampi vassāni tiṭṭhamāno paññāsampi vassāni tiṭṭhamāno vassasatampi tiṭṭhamāno, bhiyyopi tiṭṭhamāno.
But that which is called ‘mind’ and also ‘sentience’ and also ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another all day and all night.
Yañca kho etaṁ, bhikkhave, vuccati cittaṁ itipi, mano itipi, viññāṇaṁ itipi, taṁ rattiyā ca divasassa ca aññadeva uppajjati aññaṁ nirujjhati.
In read in MN 38 about bhūta :
Mendicants, do you see that this has come to be?”
Bhūtamidanti, bhikkhave, passathā”ti?“Yes, sir.”
“Evaṁ, bhante”.“Do you see that it originated with that as fuel?”
“Tadāhārasambhavanti, bhikkhave, passathā”ti?“Yes, sir.”
“Evaṁ, bhante”.“Do you see that when that fuel ceases, what has come to be is liable to cease?”
“Tadāhāranirodhā yaṁ bhūtaṁ, taṁ nirodhadhammanti, bhikkhave, passathā”ti?“Yes, sir.”
“Evaṁ, bhante”
Relying on SN 12.61, it reads as though the “maha bhuta” is so because this type of “bhuta” lasts a relatively long time compared to other “bhuta”.
If you follow my work, I believe I have established beyond reasonable doubt that not only did it exist, but that the Buddha studied it under his former teachers, to whom he attributes a saying that is derived from BU. The relevant tradition is named Adhvaryu (Pali addhariyā in DN 13, which as Wijesekera proposed and Jayatilleke concurs must be a reference to the Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa, of which the BU is the final chapter. I’ve noted dozens, if not hundreds, of points of reference, of which this is just one.
Anyway, what’s wrong with “non-Sutta” opinions?
1 Like
That would be a lot easier if it were published in, say, book form wink wink 
Footnotes and forum posts are a bit hard to “follow” the thread of as they’re not necessarily engaged with in order.
7 Likes
Dear Bhante,
This is absolutely a marvellous initiative by you! It has been of great fruit & benefit to me!
Sometimes, whilst reading your translations, I used to refer to Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi’s notes on his printed versions but now, they are all in one place!
Just as an example, this morning, I was looking at the Māgaṇḍiya sutta MN 75, (may be for the 3rd or 4th time, over the last few years) & then, from your notes accessed Snp 4.9, AN 8.11 (previously read, as well) & AN 7.64.
So, your effort is truly, useful, Bhante!
Thank you!
Upasako
1 Like
Is this an established area of Buddhist study that already has a formal name? (Pre-Buddhist sutta strata study…that sounds awkward.)
Whatever it’s called – and realizing the technical difficulty of curating footnotes and what not for online consumption, an anthology of Bhante’s work to-date would be super exciting 
.
In the meantime, I suppose we’ll keep using the search tool to find his various references and related material in essays… (sigh, a first-world problem for certain ).
Venerable, as you change your translations is there any way to access the older versions to see what has changed? I think it would be good to list the older translations for anything that has significantly changed, no?
Just so people reading this thread don’t get confused, Bhante Sujato’s notes are completely (more or less) different from Bhante Bodhi’s. As has been pointed out in this thread, Bhante Bodhi usually reports on what the commentaries have to say and Bhante Sujato usually reports on what the pre-Buddhist texts say.
In theory you could look on GitHub at the bilara-data repository and find all of the changes. But it’s not easy.
Ebook versions of his translations are available here: https://readingfaithfully.org/ebook-translations-by-bhikkhu-sujato-in-epub-kindle-pdf/ They are dated between 2020 and 2023. I believe they are all prior to the time when Bhante started the notes-related revisions.
3 Likes
Not so far as I know. Different scholars have made various remarks and investigations into different issues over the years, but so far as I know, apart from Lauren Bausch, there’s not been really systematic or thorough work in this area.
Indeed, or another way of saying it: Ven Bodhi’s notes look at where the suttas are going to, mine look at where they are coming from.
I’m looking at the commentaries pretty much every day, as well as at Analayo’s parallel studies, but I only include that when I think it genuinely adds to understanding of the Pali.
Best way is to look at the Git history, every single change is recorded forever (well as close as forever exists in tech). The best way to do this is to replace github.com with githistory.xyz, then you can see the details.
If there was interest, it wouldn’t be hard to put a githistory link in the SC interface per sutta.
Over the next week or so I’ll be revising and double-checking things, after which I would recommend updating downstream files.
6 Likes
Alexander Wynne has also discussed Brahmanical relationships and I have also heard a lecture of his where he discusses Buddhism as a philosophy arising from Kosala, contra Bronkhorst’s idea that it arose from the non-Vedic Magadhan culture. Wynne defends listening to what the texts say, where they show clear borrowing and dialogue between the Buddha and other Kosalan Brahmanical ideas.
He definitely seems to read into some things too much. But he is just trying to make ground in early Buddhist studies by proposing hypotheses and making space for people to debate and respond. Similar to Bausch, though she seems more knowledgeable of the Vedic texts themselves.
2 Likes
Oh indeed, Wynne and many others have done a lot of work; by “systematic” I mean thoroughly going through all the early Pali texts and investigating each detail.
What a state we have reached where this becomes necessary!
2 Likes
IKR!
Off topic, but Bhante, I was wondering if it would be possible to add the new translation of the Arthapada Sutra to SuttaCentral w/ Chinese and Translation aligned? Not sure if someone is responsible for contacting people and formatting legacy translations.
As a general rule, we don’t adapt external translations to Bilara, it’s a hassle. Also we have a strict requirement of copyright. With legacy texts, adapting them is simple and we are more flexible with licencing. So if someone wants to adapt it and add it in as a legacy text, and the license permits that, then by all means, I’d love it.
3 Likes
Dear Snowbird,
Thank you for the clarification & regret the delay for this response.
I should have been more clearer in my post. Nevertheless, the work by both of them have been of immense help in understanding some parts of some Suttas. We are very grateful to both of them!
Thanks, again.
With Metta,
Upaskao
1 Like